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| Date | Original Topic | | 30th November 2002 | "With His Face to the Foe." (I Knight).
By Peter Ewart
Will someone put me out of my misery? Either I've missed something obvious or misunderstood something, but no doubt the forum will put me right. Perhaps it has been aired before, in which case it should be easy!
I don't have a copy of WCF Molyneux's "Campaigning in S Africa & Egypt" (1896) but Ian Knight quotes from it on p218 of his book when describing the recovery of the body of the Prince. Molyneux says that those who helped to carry the body to the ambulance were:
"Maj-Gen Marshall, Capt Stewart, Col Drury-Lowe, and three officers of the 17th Lancers, Scott, Bartle Frere & myself, with M. Dealage ..."
Bartle Frere?
Drury Lowe's three officers are un-named - they certainly weren't Scott or Molyneux & the comma after Lowe adds ambiguity - but I am puzzled by the reference to a Bartle Frere. Who is this? Did the High Commissioner have a son or someone attached to the 2nd Divn or Flying Column?
I read the book last year but didn't notice this, but I'm confident the forum will sort it out!
Peter | | Date | Replies | | 30th November 2002 | Peter Ewart
I meant to add that when I checked the book's index to clarify the (separate?) identity of this BF, this particular ref to Frere is missing, whereas the mentions of the others in this episode are indexed, as of course are other refs to Sir BF. | | 30th November 2002 | Peter Ewart
Unless this is Lt. Frere, Rifle Bde, ADC during 2nd invasion? | | 30th November 2002 | John Young
Peter,
Yes, it was Lieutenant Bartle Compton Arthur Frere, of the 2nd Battalion of the Rifle Brigade.
Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere actually mentions him in a letter to Lt.-Gen. Lord Chelmsford; '...I need not say how grateful Lady Frere and I are to you for all your kindness to our son. I hope he will be able to make himself useful in his day, and in no way add to your anxieties. ...'
Lt. Frere is also mentioned in 'The Graphic' for 19th July, 1879, as accompanying Marshall and his staff on the search for the body of the Prince Imperial, along with Molyneux.
I now checking for the 17th Lancers officers.
John Young,
A.-Z.W.R.S.
| | 30th November 2002 | John Young
Not actually a 17th Lancer, but attached to them - John Edward Leveson Jervis - Viscount St. Vincent, of the 7th (The Queen's Own) Hussars, claims to have been one of the officers who carried the body initially.
Two to go!
JY | | 30th November 2002 | Peter Ewart
Many thanks for enlightening me on that one, John. I'd been puzzled by the omission of him from IK's index & therefore wondered about his identity. Only after I'd posted the query did I think about the Narrative of the Field Ops & saw a candidate on p146.
The letter suggests Frere Jnr might just have been foisted on Chelmsford by his father in a similar way to Napolean being dumped on him from England, except that Chelmsford & Frere got on well and I suppose it was also much less of an inconvenience in military terms.
The names of any of the 17th Ls are a welcome extra !
Peter | | 1st December 2002 | John Young
Peter,
How about this no officers' names but a piece of absolute trivia:- the two lances and the horse blanket, which were used to bear the body, were provided by members of 'G' Squadron, 17th Lancers.
"Not alot of people know that."
Source D.H. Parry's 'The Death or Glory Boys - The Story of the 17th Lancers' published by Cassell & Co., London 1899, page 259.
JY | | 1st December 2002 | Geoff Thursfield
A slight deviation - Did the Prince Imperial receive any sort of medal or decoration for his service in the war -(either French or English) ? | | 1st December 2002 | John Young
Geoff,
To my knowledge his mother did not receive the campaign medal from the British.
The French Republic apart from kicking up a fuss, made no award either.
On the day of the funeral at Chislehurst, his Legion of Honour was affixed to his coffin.
John Young,
A.-Z.W.R.S. | | 1st December 2002 | geoff thursfield
Thanks John
Geoff | | 2nd December 2002 | Mike McCabe
The Prince Imperial was not a serving member of HM Forces at any stage; not even whilst a Cadet at Woolwich - and was technically ineligible for the award of a Zulu War campaign medal | | 2nd December 2002 | John Young
Mike,
Yet other non-serving members of HM Forces received the campaign medal, why not Louis?
John | | 3rd December 2002 | John S Radburn
Peter
Which Scott was it that was one of the bearers.
Regards
John R | | 3rd December 2002 | John Young
John R.,
I'll answer it Surgeon-Major F.B. Scott, A.M.D., the former Empress Eugenie, was obviously impressed by him, as he appears to have become her confidant.
JY | | 4th December 2002 | Peter Ewart
Yes, he accompanied her on her pilgrimage the following year, didn't he? Very good portrait of him in IK's book.
Peter |
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