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Date	Original Topic
14th February 2002	Recent book - Rorkes Drift By Jim Cobbin Following all the huff and puff about recent books, will the two main illuminaries give as much time to revieving the recent book by Ed Yorke about Rorkes Drift. I haven't seen a single word about this book.If they don't, it will be obvious to everyone that their public point scoring over Adrian Greaves is just sour grapes. I have read his book and I have to say I liked it, so have other fans I know. In the end, it's only a book, not a religion to be defended. So, julian and John, what about 'Rorkes Drift'? Jim.
Date	Replies
14th February 2002	Julian Whybra Jim, I find your message difficult to answer at the moment for legal reasons but I hope to be able to soon. No, of course, it's not sour grapes (sour grapes over what?). I've been writing about and researching Isandhlwana for 20 years and have never had grievances or complaints about David Jackson's still-outstanding work (the update of which is about to be published) or Ian Knight's many excellent books. These are well-researched accounts by well-qualified, professional historians. I have only respect for their researches. You must understand that a lot of people over the years have done an immense amount of work to put right what a lot of the early writers on Isandhlwana got wrong. To see a modern work which for example gives the wrong name of the Zulu commander who led the army on 22.1.79, to get the British line utterly wrong will be like in 120 years from now finding someone who writes that Goebbels led the German forces in WW2 and the Allies landed in Brittany on D-Day! And then there's the passion. Don't you think that those brave souls of the 22nd January, black and white, deserve better? Well, I had an ancestor at Isandhlwana who left home at the age of 9 to avoid rural squalor in the Essex marshes, who became a ship's cabin boy and eventually enlisted in the 24th and die at Isdandhlwana. I think he deserves better. I want to know what happened to him, WHAT HAPPENED, and perhaps that's the thral of Isandhlwana. Now, for the second part of your comment; there are errors in Mr Yorke's book, it's true, but I understand the proof-reading may have been rushed and they are being corrected apparently. At least it's all his own work and he's not making claims about his research which aren't true. And now for the third part of your comment -if you liked Mr Greaves's book, well fine, good, it's very readable, but so is Len Deighton or Enid Blyton. No-one is questioning its literary merits or its entertainment value but I'm afraid that an historical work, even a popular historical work, MUST have some pretence of historical accuracy otherwise, well, what's the point? If you were really inspired by his book - then go and look at the primary sources and see for yourself. Perhaps then you'll understand my point of view a little better.
14th February 2002	Ian Essex Jim, I read the book last week and didn't find it to be the 'radical new interpretation' on the defence as the marketing suggested on the back of the book. It seemed to go over what I had already read, particularly the Washing of the Spears, which for my money is still the best account. Sadly, it also contains a large number of typing errors that really annoy when reading. There is also a picture in the book which has no index reference. Having said that...there is a brilliant picture contained within that I had never seen. Hook, Hitch and other V.C holders photographed in later life. Worth it just for that!
14th February 2002	John Young Jim, You may or may not be aware of it, but there was something of 'whispering campaign' which went around by e-mail over Dr. Edmund Yorke's 'Rorke's Drift'. So at least our 'public point scoring', as you term it, has been done so in public, and in no way can it be considered as clandestine. I will certainly be doing a review of his book in the next issue of 'The Journal of Anglo-Zulu War Research Society'. I for one was certainly amazed that 2nd Anglo-Boer War period photographs, which were attributed to me, and were thought to portray troops in the field in the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879. The work is flawed, but the author, Dr. Yorke admits that and hopefully with a reprint the errors will have been corrected. I have addressed a number of things to Dr. Yorke in person, when I last visited The Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. One point, I do not consider myself as luminary, I am merely an interested amateur, who is equally prepared to be self-critical over his own published work, which has a number of errors, some I hasten to add caused by the printers. Everyone I have known who has published work on the Anglo-Zulu War has had their detractors. Personally, I hope that Dr. Adrian Greaves will in some way benefit from this public review and criticism of his work, and should a reprint be considered he might think of making some amendments. Personally Jim, well done for coming to Dr. Greaves's defence and I am glad you liked his book, but with the facts you are now armed with can enjoy it all the more. John Young, Chairman, Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.
14th February 2002	Julian Whybra Ian, I admit that Morris's book is eminently well-written and readable, and started many people's interest, but as for the 'best account'? The book is not annotated and, sadly, unless evidence is presented to back up a view or series of facts, then the argument is worthless. The book falls short in this respect as an academic work.
14th February 2002	John Young Ian, Which was the photograph without a credit? If you give me a page number, I might be able to establish Ed's source for it just by looking. John Young, Chairman, Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.
15th February 2002	Julian Whybra I, too, John, an aware of the 'whispering campaign' against Mr. Yorke. I'm also aware of a second 'whispering campaign' having commenced but not a very creative one as the same phrases are being repeated indicating a common source. May I remind everyone that this is the place for open discussion, for intellectual debate, and historical criticism. The proper home for 'sour grapes' is in a 'whispering campaign'. If you really want to believe that Prince Dabulamanzi led the Zulus at Isandhlwana, well, fine, that's up to you. We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars.
15th February 2002	Julian Whybra I, too, John, an aware of the 'whispering campaign' against Mr. Yorke. I'm also aware of a second 'whispering campaign' having commenced but not a very creative one as the same phrases are being repeated indicating a common source. May I remind everyone that this is the place for open discussion, for intellectual debate, and historical criticism. The proper home for 'sour grapes' is in a 'whispering campaign'. If you really want to believe that Prince Dabulamanzi led the Zulus at Isandhlwana, well, fine, that's up to you. We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars.
15th February 2002	Edward Bear Referring to the first entry at the head of this topic, it is very unfortunate that rational exchanges of views and re-statements of matters of fact should be seen as if point scoring. Writers on this broad and complex subject are not football teams for us all to support irrespective of their strengths and weaknesses. Where a writer charges of the order of twenty five pounds for a book - whatever the book is - the reader has a reasonable expectation of quality, accuracy, objectivity and balance. Some of the books referred to in various topics on this discussion page do not even come close to that, and are simply indefensible.
15th February 2002	Julian Whybra Well said Mr Bear, I totally agree. I would urge you to read David Jackson's account when it appears - I'm sure you will find value, quality, accuracy and historicity for your money.
17th February 2002	Ian Essex John, The photo in question is on page 113. It is of Private George Edwards (alias Orchard)It is just strange that there is no reference to him in the index. There seems to be no mention of him in the text of the book. Mind you I may have been tired when I read the book and missed it!?!? Having said that I now understand from reading the various 'debates' going on above, that there may have been a problem with the printers?
18th February 2002	John Young Ian, Yes you were obviously snoozing along with Nigel Green's 'Colour Sergeant Bourne'. Picture 121 of George Edwards, a.k.a. Orchard, is shown as 'RRWM' - Royal Regiment of Wales Museum. Although I have seen the same photograph in 'Nothing Remains But To Fight' as belonging to the 'Orchard Family'. John Young, Chairman, Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.