rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - infantry marksman training for Victorian soldiers

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:25 pm

does anyone know how the Victorian infantry soldier trained in marksmanship, modern ranges have the "butts" - target line, and firing lines at varying distances and theres a lot of waiting around for soldiers until their turn to get on the firing line, you take turns between the line and the butts, your job here marking fall of shot on the target.
Was it similar then, what targets would they use, would they have to range sweep afterwards to collect brass and dig the lead out of the banks behind the target.
also how did they conduct bayonet practice

thanks for any help

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 am

Several of the other regular denizens of this site are far more qualified to answer, but I'll give it a shot (so to speak). "Marksmanship training"? What's that? The Victorian ranker of the AZW period was notorious for his lack of training with live ammunition-- it simply cost too much. It wasn't until after the Second Anglo/Boer War that proper recognition was given to the usefulness of having soldiers who could actually hit a target. The efficacy of that later training subsequently produced one of the straightest shooting armies in the World by the time of "The Great War", but that was still in Tommy's future in 1879.

I believe that it's Byron Farwell who mentions in his book "Mr. Kipling's Army" that the annual issue of live practice ammunition was in the order of a couple of dozen rounds or less and that one farsighted colonel actually purchased ammunition out of his own pocket!

I imagine that someone frugally collected the brass and lead on the range, but keep in mind that this was rolled brass not drawn, so it wasn't as simple as recasting the bullets and reloading the hulls.

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:59 am

Sawubona
The school of Musketry at Hythe was set up well before the AZW to promote the art of Rifle shooting, so your "shooting from the hip" answer so to speak is rather "off the Mark".

Firing ranges, for both Military and Militia were commonplace in all areas, for example in the environs of Nottingham where I live there was at least three Military ranges C1875, by 1895 there was five. Ranges consisted usually of 100, 200, 300, 500, 1000 and often 1700 yards ranges, with butts (normally a trench with below the line of flight) with pop up target boards, targets graduated in size to the range firing from.

Target boards would either be counterbalanced and slide up, hinge up or in the instance of "Woods Patent" target board work like a windmill. A marker would show the fall of shot, this would be like a large lollipop on a stick, or, a coloured marker would show the point of impact.

Alot of troops were drawn from Volunteer / or Militia battalions, normally the 3rd Battn in any regiment, musketry practice, albeit with second classed rifles, most likely Sniders was part of regular drill.

Most ranks from NCO's were drilled at Hythe in the understanding of windage and range evaluation. All ranks were expected fire a minimum of 50 rounds of Ball P/A plus 200 blanks, as regulation, however if a soldier wanted to do more he could.

Even special ammunition boxes (designed to be returnable) were devised, for example the Mk1 and MkV1 boxes (one tin lined one not) were "Home service" boxes.

Occasionally the sand behind the butts would have to be de-leaded, after time the amount of expended bullets can cause serious ricochet as bullet hit dead. This would be done with a shovel, a mesh grid and labour.

Here is an image of a range C1885, this is The Robin Hood rifles, I can date it circa 1885 as they exchanged the Sniders in 1884, glengarrys are of a similiar dated pattern. You can see the spent rounds and paper packets on the floor. No doubt it was somebodys job to tidy this up.

Note also the firer closest to the camera is a leftie, (like me), proof indeed that accuracy, in that situation was paramount, not the traditional "right hand shot irrespective ". Perhaps if Adrian reads this he might enlighten us on the regulations regarding the hand of shot.

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:23 am

Very informative as usual, Neil. Is there anything you don't know about Victorian firearms? But wasn't the agenda at Hythe the training of future "musketry" instructors, who would then be certified to train common soldiers? I've read that in 1880 it was determined to limit enrollment at Hythe to only NCO's and ranks above, one NCO (later Field Marshall William Robertson) having written :
"I was sent to Hythe to qualify as an assistant instructor and spent two wearisome months in repeating parrot fashion the words in the drill manual. Little or no attention was given to the art of shooting in the field: even then it was only the regulation forty rounds per person."

I don't know that his experience was typical, but at that point, after just forty rounds, he was deemed sufficiently seasoned to train others in marksmanship.

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:40 pm

Saw/Neil/John

Fascinating picture. One or two "civvies" present, including a young lad? And a strange sort of pose the left-hander is holding - elbow, hand, grip, angle of rifle etc? Has he just been caught at the wrong moment or is he - being the closest to the camera - demonstrating something in particular?

I also have a photo of some practice going on at Hythe, with seven soldiers lying down and aiming, with - presumably - an armed NCO instructor kneeling behind them and another a few paces behind him, watching the camera. Between him and the camera are three more figures demonstrating a weapon (Gatling? Gardner? - anyway, a wheeled gun sporting a protective metal plate shielding the kneeling gunners) and I could post this snap here if I understood anything at all about photobucket and all the rest. (Last time I tried I got nowhere!) I can send it to anyone by email for putting up here, or if it is the same one I sent to JY a couple of years back (I'm not certain if it is, but think so) then he may want to do so if he still has it. Reproduced in modern times as a postcard by the Kent County Library service, dated by them at c1890. And, of course, there's the 1878 snap of Smith-Dorrien at Hythe S of M which appears in Smithers' biography.

Presumably the numerous and substantial garrisons at Shorncliffe, Hythe and Lydd all did their musketry training at the Hythe school in those days? Perhaps even the Dover garrison - or did they have their own ranges? As a boy in Rye, Sussex in the '50s and '60s (that's the 19 50s & 60s!) whenever we heard a loud, deep rumbling in the distance we just assumed it was coming from "the Lydd ranges" (artillery?) or from one of those new-fangled V-bombers going through the sound barrier. (The noises were probably a bit different!)

Peter

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:12 pm

All,

As an aside, we still use Lydd and Hythe on a regular basis.

All military ranges are still regularly de-leaded.

AMB

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:01 pm

Peter,

The thing about the Smithers' photograph is you only get HLS-D, here's the rest of the course.

Hythe 1878. John Young Collection

John Y.

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:55 pm

Well done, John! I suspected you might have the whole picture. For those not familiar with this snap, HL S-D is the chap sitting on the floor, third from right in the front, left hand on left knee. The year he embarked for S Africa, so only a matter of months before Isandlwana and the nearest likeness we are ever likely to see of him around the time of the AZW.

What about the Hythe pc? Do you still have it?

Andrew - very interested to see Lydd is still used. But presumably there is no garrison still there? Between Lydd and West Hythe, possibly in the parish of Dymchurch and between the A259 and the sea, is plenty of military land on or near the beach containing a mock-up of an urban townscape used, I understand, to train army personnel for postings to Ulster during the Troubles. Lydd parish church itself not only underwent a typical Victorian restoration in the 1880s but at the same time it was also considerably enlarged to accommodate an expanded local garrison, which means Lydd Camp must have been without a garrison church, unlike - for example - Shorncliffe. The Luftwaffe blew the eastern end of it to pieces in 1940 but the repaired church is still the longest in Kent, the two cathedrals excepted. And, of course, we have the development of lyddite for the 2nd ABW, but that's another story.

Peter

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:40 am

Peter,

I have the Hythe picture somewhere, I can't lay my hands on it at present as a number of my images are boxed up at this time.

Here's HL S-D in close-up.

Lt. Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien, 95th (Derbyshire) Regiment, 1878. John Young Collection.

John Y.

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:56 am

Peter
What the Leftie is doing is blowing down the barrel, the moisture in your breath renders the fouling/soot into a liquid, hence that, with the melted beeswax lubicates for the next round.

Today, black powder shooters use a blow tube, a flexible hose, it saves accidentally kissing a smokey, dirty receiver, but I can't go out on a sunday without the imortal lines "I love the smell of Blackpowder in the morning!". If you tap an expended case on a bench, the sooty shards left will turn into liquid, even on hot sunny days.

The Hythe Picture is superb, note the mix of Martini's and Sniders, proof indeed that the Snider was still a drill and musketary weapon of choice, in 1878, the Martini had been adopted as the "Standard arm" for a little over three years, most Volunteer and militia were still on these.(plus most of the Indian Regiments).

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:01 am

John Y
Could you do me a favour?, on the Front row second from right a soldier is holding his Martini, could you high res scan this for me? in particular the trigger assembly and the clearing rod.

I am researching when the Mk2 Rifles were being issued, specically the the upgrades from my mk1, the image will give me the info on this as I can identify the trigger seat and the rod. sad, but vital!

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:20 pm

Neil

Thanks for that explanation. I knew that if there was a technical reason for such a strange (to me) pose, you'd know the answer. I always think that if anyone ever thought (as if I would! Wink

) that a soldier could just bung a bullet in a rifle and then shoot at whoever he's pointing at and repeat the procedure until he wants to stop, then the technical expertise on this site would soon disabuse us!

Having read your description of his activity and then looked at the picture again, the explanation fits perfectly. Thanks again.

Peter

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:02 pm

Neil,

I try and dig the original out over the weekend and do the scan.

John Y.

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:08 pm

Neil,

Is this any good?

If not e-mail me.

John Y.

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:25 pm

John
Absolutely spot on thanks, these are Mk2 Rifles, nothing unusual there, as the issue date was 1877, I did expect to see Mk1's.

Regs