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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:50 pm

Peter

Had a look at p5 last night & I can't see that the writer says anything to suggest that his view was based on information from the army. Of course, it's only a newspaper report & he can surmise what he likes but I get the impression that the reason he gives is his idea only. I'd be very surprised if he was right - and this view is bolstered by reading the whole of his para 2, which, you'll heartily agree I'm sure, is unadulterated tripe! (I think it was para 2).

Yes, tug-of-war and/or athletics are the most likely activities, I'd think.

Keith

I also read it that way. Cancellation of the sport on the 25th.

Rich

Answered your points last night & lost it all just before posting, so won't go through it all again. However: very briefly, the 18th century was the heyday of betting on cricket - the Victorians more or less knocked it on the head. The Durham game was almost certainly a professional match - completely different circumstances to the soccer being played at that time in the public schools & universities. I did elaborate last night but it all disappeared into the ether!

Peter

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:43 am

I noticed a curious discrepancy between the various celebrations of Christmas the other day, which I guess might provide a clue that different units were engaged in different things. The letters of Owen Ellis remark that no special lunch was served in the 1st/24th - does this suggest that there were other things to do, rather than take the day off and play sport?

By contrast Arthur Harness remarks in one if his letters to his brother, that he made a special effort and he and his officers bought, I think from memory, a goose between every ten men in the battery. Of course he and his second in command were in a particularly good mood - the Chrsitmas Eve mail brought news of Harness's brevet to Lt Col, and Stuart Smith's to Major! Can't off the top of my head remember with certainty where N Battery was on Xmas Day, but I think it might have been Greytown.

Regards

Mike

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:39 pm

Those who were still on the border road by then appear to have had a miserable Christmas floundering about in the mud & the rain, exhausting themselves with pushing & pulling the transport up hill & down dale. Didn't one of the 24th chaps complain in a letter home that it was the worst Christmas he'd ever had and that he'd never forget it? (Seen in "The Red Soldier" probably but I'm not with my books at present).

I've read dozens of accounts of travel by missionaries & traders in Zululand & Natal c1850-1900 or so, mostly from missionary sources, and they usually struggled with a single cart & a team of oxen. Difficulties were legion but they were every bit as tough and hardy as any soldier & usually arrived at their destination - despite steep hills, rocks, kloofs, floods & innumerable dangerous river crossings - but they were seldom travelling to a timetable. You just couldn't. But the constituent parts of the assembling 3rd column had a political & military deadline to make - something to do with an ultimatum!

Perhaps the King should have been given a bit more time when he asked for it after all?

Peter

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:45 pm

Peter

Quite so. You have to wonder if the British were actually ready for a war on 11 Jan!!

Regards

Mike

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:34 pm

Peter Q / Peter E

I think Keith has put his finger on it. Don't forget that Owen Ellis (and yes, pardon me for bringing him in yet again ...) writing home on Tuesday 31 December, says:

`Wel, y mae yn amser i mi at derfynu fy llythyr, ond rhaid i mi ddyweyd wrthych ddarfod i sports fod yn y regiment yma ddydd Sadwrn diweddaf. Yr oeddynt fel �Sports Dros yr Aber,� sef rhedeg races, neidio, a phethau felly, gyda races ceffylau, &c. Gallasech feddwl felly mai ychydig o bwys sydd ar feddwl y sowldiwrs i gwffio gyda�r Brenin Cetywayo ...' {NB: the capital *I's* aren't in the Welsh text - for some reason the system won't let me put them in the lower case}

[Well, it's time I brought this letter to a close, but I've got to tell you that the regiment had a sports [day] last Saturday. They were a bit like the `Sports Over the Estuary' {= at the time, a traditional sports day held in a park across the mouth of the estuary from Caernarfon}: running races, jumping and things like that, together with horse races &c. You'd have thought that the fact they were about to scrap it out with King Cetshwayo weighed very little on the soldiers' minds ...]

Assuming that poor old 312's memory for dates surpassed his somewhat dodgy grasp of numbers, and that his reference to `last Saturday' means what it says, then it may be that the 24th did in fact hold a sports day at Helpmekaar on Saturday 28th December 1878. Note that the usual translation omits the horse-racing, but I often wonder what the '&c' referred to??

Paul

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:32 pm

Good work, Paul. A postponement from Christmas day then, or a decision that the 28th would be more appropriate or, for some reason, more practical. I suppose more men and equipment were arriving every day during that week.

I think this shows the journalist on the Natal paper to have been a bit presumptious in his guesswork for the reason why Christmas Day was not chosen.

Peter

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:09 pm

The MI officers also organized sports days for their men - have a look at Newnham-Davis!

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:22 pm

Paul Bryant-Quinn wrote:

`Wel, y mae yn amser I mi at derfynu fy llythyr, ond rhaid I mi ddyweyd wrthych ddarfod I sports fod yn y regiment yma ddydd Sadwrn diweddaf. Yr oeddynt fel �Sports Dros yr Aber,� sef rhedeg races, neidio, a phethau felly, gyda races ceffylau, &c. Gallasech feddwl felly mai ychydig o bwys sydd ar feddwl y sowldiwrs I gwffio gyda�r Brenin Cetywayo ...' {NB: the capital *I's* aren't in the Welsh text - for some reason the system won't let me put them in the lower case}

'Well, it's time I brought this letter to a close, but I've got to tell you that the regiment had a sports [day] last Saturday. They were a bit like the `Sports Over the Estuary' {= at the time, a traditional sports day held in a park across the mouth of the estuary from Caernarfon}: running races, jumping and things like that, together with horse races &c. You'd have thought that the fact they were about to scrap it out with King Cetshwayo weighed very little on the soldiers' minds ...

What is the original Welsh for the rest of this quotation (i.e. 'indeed, everybody think of returning home'). Want to include this in my dissertation, so I'm curious.

(I have an automatic intercept for lowercase 'I' to prevent people using it on its own in lowercase. I didn't anticipate Welsh being used. - Alan)

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:10 pm

Mike raises a good and interesting point and soldiers of both battalions of 24th would inevitsably have contrasted the Christmas of 1878 with those experienced in 1876 and 1877 particularly had they been experienced at the Brecon Depot. It would appear that sheer force of circumstance prevented the usual exceptional and usually officer-led efforts gone to so as to provide the men with some special treats and comforts at their Christmas dinner. But then it is easy to see how disruptive the real activities of the individual companies of 24th would have inhibited the normal preparations as people passed along the lines of advance through PMB and Greytown, often on much reduced basic rations (due to infrequency of new supply) and with their less than usual access to unit waggon transport, camp equipments, and the time necessary to organise any other than the most elementary feeding arrangements.

There are also inferences that the accompanying sutlers and canteens had probably long ago run out of all but the simplest supplies (writing paper for example and not just immediately after Isandlwana).

In close knit units like these battalions the loss of a 'proper' Christmas would have been keen;ly felt but the cause would have been readily understood and therefore realistically accepted. Both battalions had in effect been on the march for most of late 1878 with only fairly short interludes in PMB and not necessarily much opportunity to re-stock there. The absence of sources of fresh meat and the lack of any means to keep it, except for fairly short periods if cooked, would also have been problematic.
No surprises if the RA found ways round this, having much more ability to forage off the line of march under some 'Gunner' pretext. Pergaps it was the RA that had more time to loaf around and play cricket, there only standing duties whilst in camp being stables parades, equipment cleaning and mounting sentry on their own guns and limbers.

G

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:41 am

Peter:

Message me privately and let me know which text you need to refer to.

Paul