rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:52 pm

Colonel Mike,

I bow to your superior knowledge - Sudan/Egypt is but a very small shelf in my library!

So, 'the Corps' fails to make the end credits, eh? So it is ever thus...

AMB

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:01 am

A

What is interesting in the context of policemen, is that Val Baker's orbat includes 40 'European' Mounted Police. As far as I am aware, and they are irritatingly elusive, these were rough diamonds of the sort who enlisted in the NNC, and were working for the Egyptians not the British. Quite how long they had been mounted policemen in Egypt before the unhappy Baker disaster is not clear (to me, at least) but I presume they were enlisted after the bombardment of Alexandria, possibly in the course of or not long afterwards, Wolseley's Tel-el-Kebir campaign. Just as Evelyn Wood was appointed Sirdar [Baker had been offered the job by the Egyptians but the Queen was having none of it - following the (ahem) 'incident' - and insisted he be passed over], to reform the Egyptian Army, and had a contingent of British officers to help him do it, so too Baker became commandant of police with the idea of knocking the gendarmerie units into shape - and I guess these Euros would have been enlisted to help him. I'll bet they were an interesting bunch.

As ever

Mike

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:08 pm

Mike
Robsons Road to Kabul is my holiday read for next week, Ashers Khartoum has just been re-visited again, hard acts to follow. If HCMDB is anything to go by I had better get ye olde midnight oil well stocked up agian.

Abu Klea was probably the most ferocious action ever fought by the Victorian army, in terms of sheer violence over a very short period. I have an Egypt medal & Khedive Star from a Guardsman of the camel corps (Abu Klea clasp). investigating this fellow more means I have been studying the campaign in depth.

The reality of it, as many will come to find, is that the British square, when maintained is THE defensive formation against a fast moving enemy over levelish ground. But, even then massed firepower, is not enough.

A note here, I have studied long and hard the photographs of the time, in particular the weaponary, ( a good book for this is Blood red Desert sand, Barthorp). Nearly all the British regiments have the Mk2 Martini, in some cases the Mk1 (KRRR), (cleaning rod and butt swivels the giveaway). The conclusions about its stopping power can only be judged by its performance in battles of a similar nature.

The posts about what would have happened the 24th withdrawn to square at Isandlwana, still to me is a non starter. If 2000 men of the camel corps could not hold tight formation, what chance 700?.

Are you going to do a signed edition throught the RDVC shop for the regulars?

Neil

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:32 pm

Hi Neil

Robson's Road to Kabul is excellent but Asher's Khartoum, though a romping good read, has a few too many errors in the military detail for me.

There were only about 1,200 fighting men in the walls of the square at Abu Klea - I would rate it as the second nastiest fight after Isandlwana, for the reason that on 22 Jan 79 all hope was lost during the stands in the Saddle whereas I don't think the Camel Corps ever felt that same 'I am going to die' sensation - but regardless of that, it was hair-raising enough for anybody. See what I have to say about how the square came to be penetrated at Abu Klea before you form a final opinion and transpose the lessons directly across to Isandlwana. I have some new material on the subject - in so far as anything in history is really new - it just gets re-discovered after being lost for a while. New or old, it hasn't seen the light of day for many a year and may well have a bearing on your conclusions. Hope you like it. I expect the final proofs at the tail end of the week, ready for that most loathsome of pastimes - indexing! Pass the Webley!

I thought I'd sign off a few in Brecon as I'm now a museum Trustee (take that as a declaration of interest!) and I know Martin is always keen to scoop in a few extra farthings for the cause!

As ever

Mike

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:21 pm

...that's good Mike....well could I get one of the scribbled ones from Brecon then? ......could Martin put me on the list???

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:24 pm

Dear Mike

Does this mean you intend to hold a book signing at Brecon? If so, any idea when? I have decided to forgive you for the lack of bacon sandwiches on the Academy roundabout and buy Into the Jaws of Death.

Regards

Paul

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:00 pm

Rich and Paul

On the other end of the RRW museum's e-sales address is the lovely Celia Green, who I'm sure will be happy to track any requests for personalized copies. Not a book signing Paul, (for fear of dying of embarassment!) - I just slip in when nobody is looking and sign up the batch Celia has set to one side.

It now appears, Rich, that the Naval Institute Press edition will be out in the US well before the book is launched into the UK shops, though apparently it will be available in the UK direct from Greenhill in advance of its formal UK launch. Lucky old America. Very Happy

As ever

Mike

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:10 pm

Thanks Mike..yes I'll get in touch with the indispensable Celia at Brecon (loved that town from what I got to see of it!) on your signed book..good to see the book'll be here in the stores...

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:20 pm

Rich

It's not a bad spot - a bastion of British civilization! We'll have to get you to the top of Pen-y-Fan next time. You should be able to see NY from up there! Very Happy

As ever

Mike

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:22 pm

hey Mike, I loved going through the "Beacons"..nice land nice land...

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:35 pm

Mike,
I guess that you have seen Burnaby's portrait in the National Portrait Gallery? By 'eck, he had long legs - no wonder he could pick up ponies and vault snooker tables. Have you read the stuff that Baker wrote for the RUSI?

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:46 am

Damian

Six foot four by all accounts. Fred is probably my favourite of all the characters one encounters in researching the Victorian Army. I know the picture you mean; I have given him a good bit of coverage in Into the Jaws of Death and have acquired A Ride to Khiva and a couple of biographies of him during the course of my research. He appears in the plate section of my book in his Blues full dress uniform complete with cuirass. My word he must have been a sight in full helmeted rig, and on a big Irish warhorse. If only he'd been dressed like that at Abu Klea....

I was interested to learn that he had been in ill-health for some time, but that he seems to have recovered himself somewhat in the Sudan. Have read his letters to his wife, from whom he lived apart, because she was in Switzerland for her fragile health, while Fred was soldiering and politicking in England.

As to Val Baker, he's an interesting cove too. I've read a monograph he wrote on the handling of cavalry, and some stuff of his about 1st El Teb. I've not had time to read his book on the Russo-Turkish War. Is the stuff at RUSI about the Sudan or the Russo-Turkish set-to?

As ever

Mike

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:25 pm

Happily I've managed to acquire a copy of "Little Bighorn/Isandlwana, courtesy of a helpful member of the Forum. So no long wait and no need to take out another mortgage! Very Happy

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:53 am

Apologies. I've just realised my last comment on Little Bighorn/Isandlwana was posted on the wrong thread.

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:21 pm

Mike..just an fyi...looks like the book has traveled 'cross the pond...it's here...you got a fine review from a professor emeritus...