rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - Rorke's Drift Defender's Medals in Spink Sale

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:28 pm

The South Africa and India General Service medals awarded to Sergeant Thomas Burke are being sold at Spink in April.

The estimate is quite staggering - �25-30,000. Aside from the fact that he was an NCO, I'm at a loss to explain why the estimate is so high.

A much more interesting lot is the South Africa and Egypt pair to W H Ingram, Dunn's Scouts. A gentleman-adventurer and big game hunter, he was trampled to death by a wounded elephant at the age of 33. The estimate is �5-7,000 but regrettably I will not be bidding on either group.

Peter

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:39 pm

Peter

Just think what an asset this could be though to the P.W. pension fund.

Graham

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:11 am

The campaign medal issued to Lt Thomas Purvis, NNC is in the same sale...(slightly lower estimate than that for Pte Burke though !!!)

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:04 am

As is the medal to Lt Bright, killed in action at Khambula, estimate �4-4,500, plus a number of other singles.

Peter

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:59 pm

Dear Peter ,
Surely the fact that the medal( s ) of Pte [ Sgt ] T Burke can command such a high price is the very fact that that the person concerned was at the mission station on that day in 1879 !!! . I hope that whoever gets his medals they will pass them onto to the SWB`S museum in Brecon . Can you imagine how much in money terms the 11 VC`S and 5 DCM`S would fetch if offered for sale ? . I hope before i die the ORIGINAL VC of FRED HITCH VC is found and returned to his family or to Brecon where it belongs . Once in the hands of private collectors these medals are not seen in the main by the general public . It is sad when any group of medals is sold but as we are interested in the Zulu war of 1879 so much that is why in my humble opinion they command such high sums at sale . " Sapper "

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:39 pm

Graham

You rather missed the point I was making. Medals to RD defenders have commanded a premium for many years, but the estimate for this group appears to be very high for an "ordinary" defender, aside from the fact that he was an NCO.

The medal to Pte Bushe, who was wounded in the defence, sold last year for �31,000 at auction. The group of medals to Harry Lugg sold in 2005 for �26,500 against an estimate of �18-22,000. Both men feature in a number of accounts.

By contrast, little is known of Sgt Burke, and he appears on the Bourne roll only. Consequently I would have expected this to be estimated between �18-22,000.

The medals and museums versus collectors debate has been rehearsed here before; suffice to say that I don't believe all medals belong in museums. Both have a role to play as custodians of our military heritage.

Peter

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:50 pm

Yes, what price the VC's and the defender's medals ?

Difficult to value scarcity.

Charles Upham's unique VC and Bar went for a reputed 1.17 million pounds stg to the Imperial Museum, paid for by the Garfield Weston Foundation,
and held on permanent display (long term loan ?) by the NZ Army Museum in Waiouru.

Sean

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:50 am

Peter
Dixons latest sale a 24th Corp KIA Isandlwana, �8500. Brights medal is in my opinion a low estimate as Bright was involved in a specific action at Khambula and shot in the legs.I think now some of the other medals to KIA's in the AZW are set to fly as more and more interest is shown in the war.

Take 80th regiment medals, KIA Meyers drift, a third the cost of and Isandlwana casualty.... or 66th Miawand (probably as big a defeat as Isandlwana). It's a case of buy now....or never afford that piece.

Probably see you at the next sale!

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:45 am

I was going to post this elsewhere, but I'll put it here as it's relevant to the earlier question about the VCs.

I'm currently reading Michael Ashcroft's book which accompanied the Five series "Victoria Cross Heroes". It's actually quite good, but there's one part in there which intrigued me. The Ashcroft Collection includes the VC awarded to John Chard, and the postscript to the explanation of what happened at RD goes on to talk about it's acquisition by the Collection.

In the book, Michael Ashcroft writes that the highest amount that the Collection had paid for a VC at an auction was �200,000 for the one awarded to Sergeant Norman Jackson, VC, RAF in the Second World War. However, he then goes on to say "I am prepared to reveal here that we paid considerably more for Chard's when we acquired it in a private sale. However, it was worth every penny because it records arguably the most heroic stand in British military history."

I was familiar with some of the story of this medal after its award, as I understand that it's a quite interesting story in it's own right. Is it right that Sir Stanley Baker bought it but then found that it was a fake - but then found that it wasn't? I was also told by the Curator of the Royal Engineers Museum in Gillingham in 2003 (or thereabouts) that no-one knew where the medal was .... but this isn't correct as the Collection bought it is 2001. Does anyone know anything else about this, please?

Many thanks!

Very Happy

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:48 am

Dear Peter ,
Medals and their worth is a subject i have very little knowledge about , who is to say one medal is worth more than another ? , those who put value on such things ? . Because of the nature of ANY medal acredited to a Rorke's Drift defender each medal by that very nature will be worth a lot more to a collector .

Is there such a creature as an " ordinary defender " , as to little knowledge on Pte { Sgt } T Burke there is a lot of information on him actually , i have ( as others perhaps ) a copy of his service record and subsequent civilian life . i can`t accept anyone who took part in the defence of Rorke's Drift as an " ordinary defender " , " Sapper " .

PS : Would you consider for instance FRED HITCH VC as an ordinary defender and the monetary value of his ORIGINAL VC is ??? . It is out there somewhere but due to the fact it was stolen all those years ago makes the chances of us all seeing again NIL , what a terrible circumstance . I hope the purchaser of the medal ( s ) of Thomas Burke will put them where they belong , in Brecon , thank you .. Smile

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:15 pm

Are you all sitting comfortably?

These are hammer prices, excluding commission and VAT:
Ingram - Dunn's Scouts �5,800
Rorke's Drift pair to Burke - �28,000
SAGS to Sir HF Norbury, Surgeon to Edward VII and George V - �3,600
Lt Bright - �10,000
Lt Purvis, wounded with Scheiss - �3,400

Peter

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 1:46 pm

You know last year I could recall that Lord Ashcroft, the fellow who has amassed many VC medals, mentioned that he wanted to set up a "National Centre of Excellence for Bravery" in London. The medals would then be on display there. Now, at this point, does it look like the place is coming along? I haven't heard any more news on it.

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:05 am

A photographic album belonging to Sir Henry Newbury (whose SAGS was sold at Spink last year) is being auctioned on November 20th at George Kidner Auctions in Lymington, UK, as reported in the Daily Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3391265/Naval-surgeons-Anglo-Zulu-War-images-to-be-sold-at-auction.html

Here's the Spink description:

Sale 7012 Lot 1015

The South Africa 1877-79 Medal to Staff Surgeon Sir H.F. Norbury, Later Director General of Naval Medical Services [K.C.B.], Honorary Surgeon to Their Majesties King Edward VII and King George V
South Africa 1877-79, one clasp, 1877-8-9 (H.F. Norbury, Staff Surgn. R.N., H.M.S. "Active"), toned, extremely fine, and a rare clasp to Royal Naval personnel, with photograph of recipient
Estimate � 650-750

Sir Henry Frederick Norbury, K.C.B., M.D., F.R.C.S., R.N. (1839-1925); educated at Oundle School; studied medicine at St. Bart's, London and the University of Malta; M.R.C.S 1860; appointed Surgeon in the Navy, 1860; M.D. 1870; Staff Surgeon 1872; appointed to the corvette H.M.S. Active on the Cape and West Africa stations, October 1876; and whilst on her books he was landed in Medical charge of the Naval Brigade during the Kaffir War, 1877-78; served in the Transkei as Senior Medical Officer of six different columns of troops and was present in numerous skirmishes and in action at Quorra River and the Battle of Quintana (M.I.D. and strongly recommended for promotion); during the Zulu War of 1879 he was again landed and in charge of the Active's Naval Brigade and served as Principal Medical Officer of Colonel Pearson's Column being present at the Battle of Inyezane, January 1879, and the relief of the garrison of Ekowe (M.I.D. several times); joined General Crealock's Columns as Principal Medical Officer to the entire Naval Brigade and advanced to Port Durnford (Twice M.I.D.); Fleet Surgeon, July 1879 (C.B. July 1879; he also won the Gilbert Blane Gold Medal); appointed in charge of the Naval Hospital at the Cape of Good Hope, August 1879; he held the latter position for three years, during which time he was made M.D. of the University of the Cape; after a brief period at Impregnable training ship for boys, he was promoted Deputy Inspector-General of Hospitals and Fleets, April 1887; transferred to the department of the Director General to assist the then incumbent, Sir James Dick, 1890; Norbury spent five years in this capacity before being promoted Inspector General of Hospitals and Fleets, 1895 (Knight of Grace of the Order of St. John); he succeeded Sir James Dick as Director General of Naval Medical Services, 1898 (K.C.B.); elected Honorary Fellow of the Royal Naval College of Surgeons, 1900; retired 12.11.1904, having been Honorary Surgeon to both King Edward and King George and having written The Naval Brigade in South Africa (a photocopy of which is included with the lot).

Approximately 5 medals with '1877-8-9' clasp awarded to Naval Brigade Officers (Norbury, Lieutenant Craigie, Lieutenant Hamilton - all on Active and Commander E.H. Davis and Lieutenant Cockran on Bodicea. Approximately 111 '1877-8-9' clasp award to the Royal Navy.

Note that the estimate was somewhat adrift of the �3,600 hammer price...

Peter

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:12 am

Scorer,
As I've heard the story of Chard's VC, Sir Stanley Baker bought what he was led to believe was a copy of the original and it wasn't until after his death that it was determined to be in fact the original. Apparently the authenticity of a VC can now be proven through spectral analysis-- a non-destructive analysis technique used to compare the composition of two or more samples and determine the probability of a common source. As all VC's are made from the same Russian cannon captured in the Crimea, all originals and no copies will have the exactly correct profile. If true, it's sad that Baker never knew what he had.
I also heard that it dropped from sight when purchased for an undisclosed amount by an anonymous buyer. Anyone?

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:24 am

Are you sure that this is the case about ALL V.C.s being made from Crimea Cannon ?

Graham