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Mikey29211


Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Central Nebraska, USA
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Two more examples of the shako plate attached to the home service helmet.





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tom


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 45
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Hi Mikey,
Nice pics.
Here's the famous one showing Shako's on blue cloths again.
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Mikey,

Not cheap, but I've located a repro' helmet plate on http://www.arbeia.demon.co.uk/srs/collect/badges/hp7881/obchp78.htm

John Y.
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Mikey29211


Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Central Nebraska, USA
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Hi John,

Thanks for the link, i believe they also sell the OR's plate but they are always out of stock. Shocked
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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The soldier's helmet plate c1879-1881 for the 24th has a centre '24' whereas the centre of officer's plate has a sphinx with XXIV beneath.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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R. Kitchener


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
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Martin Everett wrote:
True - but incorrectly dressed. That's why 24th Helmet Plates are very rare.


Incorrectly dressed or not, the bloke is still wearing it, as are others from different Regiments. So just what is the problem? Did you want to put all of the men in the photos on a charge for being incorrectly dressed and therefore out of uniform? They were in the field, most of 'em, and sometimes uniform regulations are ignored.

Chin-Chin
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Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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A little less of your spleen Mr. Kitchener, there's a good fellow. For all we know the troops pictured were brought up on charges after their officer saw the photos!

Best

Michael
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R. Kitchener


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
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Michael Boyle wrote:
A little less of your spleen Mr. Kitchener, there's a good fellow. For all we know the troops pictured were brought up on charges after their officer saw the photos!

Best

Michael


Michael,

It wasn't my intention to troll or stir up controversy, I just wanted wanted to know why it was so important to the chap from Brecon. Yes, according to the uniform regs, they are incorrectly dressed, i.e. 'out of uniform', as it were, but the photo of the colour party also shows officers, who presumably would have at least commented on their men being out of uniform by wearing shako plates instead of the regulation helmet plates. Also, presumably, nobody in authority really cared. Just for example my own grandfather, who was an officer in the 2nd Argylls during the Great War and after, often wore on his glengarry or tam the badge of the old 93rd Highlanders, which was fairly common in his battalion, the 2nd being the old pre-1881 93rd Highlanders. I just offer this as an example, and he never told me that anyone complained about it.
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Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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Mr. Kitchener ( a bit too formal but I'm reticent to hazard a guess at your given name, and simply 'R' doesn't feel right unless that's your preference.)

'The chap from Brecon' is Major Martin Everett, curator of the Royal Regiment of Wales Museum who is perhaps the most experienced authority on all regulation matters dealing with the history of the regiment (as well as a good deal more!) He doesn't hesitate to keep us on our toes!

It's quite true that regulations were (and are) often less than fully observed, but without them how could one figure out how to beat them?

What was done was done, but it was not regulation. Simple enough and no big deal now.

Welcome to the forum, there is much to be learned here. (Not to mention this being the last remnant of civilized behaviour to be found on the World Wide Web! )

Best

Michael

BTW - You'll find I don't use 'smileys', not that there's anything wrong with that, just not my cup of whiskey, I tend to over-punctuate instead. Be assured I never offer offence.
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R. Kitchener


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
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Michael Boyle wrote:
Mr. Kitchener ( a bit too formal but I'm reticent to hazard a guess at your given name, and simply 'R' doesn't feel right unless that's your preference.)

'The chap from Brecon' is Major Martin Everett, curator of the Royal Regiment of Wales Museum who is perhaps the most experienced authority on all regulation matters dealing with the history of the regiment (as well as a good deal more!) He doesn't hesitate to keep us on our toes!

It's quite true that regulations were (and are) often less than fully observed, but without them how could one figure out how to beat them?

What was done was done, but it was not regulation. Simple enough and no big deal now.

Welcome to the forum, there is much to be learned here. (Not to mention this being the last remnant of civilized behaviour to be found on the World Wide Web! )

Best

Michael

BTW - You'll find I don't use 'smileys', not that there's anything wrong with that, just not my cup of whiskey, I tend to over-punctuate instead. Be assured I never offer offence.


Michael,

Thank you for your continuing correspondence, especially as I'm new to the site. Once again, it was never my intention to offer any offence, I was merely making a statement. As to venting my spleen, well, that needs to be done on occasion, just not here in this forum. And not about this. There are other things far more (or far less) important for me to vent my spleen about.

Cheers,

R
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Vietnam Helmets
R. Kitchener


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
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Mikey,

After seeing the photos of your Vietnam-made foreign service helmets I am convinced, as I told you in our phone conversation, that they are the late 19th-early 20th century French pattern, which you will see in paintings and period photos of French Colonial Infantry, Sailors, and Foreign Legionnaires, and given where they were made, in what was once French Indochina, it doesn't really surprise me, as I think it's extremely likely that the old dies could still exist somewhere in Vietnam.

R
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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I should have explained earlier. The home service blue helmet was introduced and issued while many infantry regiments were serving overseas (in South Africa). These regiments wore the old shako plate in their buff overseas helmets. The soldier's 24th helmet plates only remained in service until 1881, when a South Wales Borderers version was introduced. Only a few soldiers - mainly at the Depot - were issued with the 24th plate. That's why so few exist to day, but it was the correct plate for the blue helmet.

If someone keen on badges wishes now to make an investment - then the current embroided badge worn by officers and warrant officers of The Royal Welsh - which is an RRW version with a green backing as an ingetral part of the badge - introduced in 2006 - will be soon replaced with a version with a 'The Royal Welsh' scroll. Therefore only in service for 2-3 years. This item will become very rare over time.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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R. Kitchener


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
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Hullo, chaps, Controversy Kitchener here once more.

Just as a sidelight or tangent, according to Robert Graves and Byron Farwell, during the 1st World War and earlier, officers of the old 23rd Foot, the Royal Welch Fusiliers, officers were turned off parade if their tunic buttons said 'Welsh' (the official, Regulation title), as opposed to the Regimentally Accepted 'Welch'. I believe my grandfather also told me that, but I won't repeat how he also referred to certain Welsh regiments. Don't wish to cause offence, you know, and I know how Scottish Regiments can be colourfully nicknamed as well.

R.
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R. Kitchener


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
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[quote="Martin Everett"]I should have explained earlier. The home service blue helmet was introduced and issued while many infantry regiments were serving overseas (in South Africa). These regiments wore the old shako plate in their buff overseas helmets. The soldier's 24th helmet plates only remained in service until 1881, when a South Wales Borderers version was introduced. Only a few soldiers - mainly at the Depot - were issued with the 24th plate. That's why so few exist to day, but it was the correct plate for the blue helmet.

Major Everett,

Could you please satisfy a personal curiosity of mine? Just WHAT uniform would have been worn on Home service, 1898-1900? I'm asking because of a lifelong interest in H.G. Wells' 'War Of The Worlds'. I remember the old Illustrated Classics comic from my childhood, and how the artist pictured the RHA, Sappers, and various other soldiers in what I presume to have been 1902-07 khaki. But I'm certain this isn't correct. Could you shed some light on this for me?

Thank you
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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Almost the same as the Anglo-Zulu war - red tunic but for 24th white facings - blue helmet. Red tunics were worn for ceremonial occasions up until WW1.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Zulu or boer war pith helmets
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