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BBC HISTORY - MAIWAND
mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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For anybody interested in things 2nd Afghan War, there will be a little magazine piece by me in the December edition of BBC History on the Battle of Maiwand.

M
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AMB


Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 921
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Colonel,

I look fwd to it!

Once flew over Maiwand (according to the RAF it was 'down there somewhere!'). Might get to see it again some time, hopefully not too soon...

AMB
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Mike

As I don't know much about Maiwand, I decided to check around the internet for some details. Of what I found and read, as well as some fantastic paintings - Saving The Guns, Last Stand of the 66th Foot (2 officers, 9 men, and 1 dog apparently) I find it had an appeal, as in, the same sort of draw as Isandlwana, with me wanting to find out more.

Would I be right in thinking this, being the participants involved and aspects of the battle itself, maybe giving cause for many discussions about the events ?

I'm not sure if you mentioned that you may be covering this battle in 1 of your new books, but I'll ask if you could please recommend any highly-detailed titles on this specific engagement, preferably well-illustrated with participants, troop movements, etc. ?

Coll


Last edited by Coll on Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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That's the one, Coll.

Amazing, isn't it, that whereas many "heroic" disasters such as the Charge of the Light Bde, Isandlwana (these days at least), the Birkenhead, Abu Klea, Dunkirk, Albuhera or any one of the four 1ABW actions and three 2ABW sieges, as well as countless others, are reasonably well known (not to mention "unheroic" episodes such as Majuba or Singapore), Maiwand somehow fails to register - and yet it was once considered (like Isandlwana) a stirring story and, to quote a hackneyed phrase, "the stuff of legend." The memory of the 24th appears to have eclipsed that of the 66th. I don't know why this should be so - lack of a "blockbuster" film, perhaps? Surely not; after all, Isandlwana hasn't needed a film.

The list above is a bit eclectic and certainly not necessarily accurate as far as the heroic/unheroic descriptions are concerned, but Maiwand somehow doesn't seem to be so well remembered - at least in GB. It is not, apparently, the case in Afhanistan, where (we are told) even today every child is supposed to know the tale of the battle, mainly through the story of the heroine, Malalai, who genuinely is a legend. I must admit I knew nothing of her until I heard a play about her on Radio 4 some years ago. Her supposedly pivotal role appears to have been uncannily like that of Mkhosana kaMvundlana Biyela the previous year at Isandlwana. I have heard (I don't know how accurately) that Afghans are astonished that modern Britons have never heard of Malalai and of her role in the battle. They probably wouldn't believe us if they were told that most hadn't heard of Maiwand either! A sorry reflection on affairs?

Perhaps Kipling had her in mind when writing about women coming out "to cut up what remains" in his The Young British Soldier? I always thought he was referring to the (then) recent business up on the Malakand but you never know.

Can Mike advise whether he ever came across evidence of the "memory" of Maiwand among Afghans or even of the redoubtable legend of Malalai in modern times?

Peter
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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Coll

There is a long chapter on Maiwand in my forthcoming 'Into the Jaws of Death'. I agree that it is like Isandlwana a particularly interesting action about which a great deal has been forgotten or lost. I hope to trigger off some renewed interest in the subject - I have attributed 66th Regt companies to positions and officers to companies which I have not seen done before. But I have been unbale to track down a pearler of a source that gives these answers with 100% certainty, though no doubt if Maiwand was subjected to the same degree of scrutiny as Isandlwana, such things might start to turn up. So I have had to fit together from clues various in sources various and have invited further discussion and correspondecne in the preface. I'd like to go back and do a whole book one day but of course all publishers have to be convinced that there is a market.

Of course there is little of the above detail in the BBC article due to constraints of space but I have seen the page layout and it is nicely presented and illustrated.

There is some fantastic art from the battle Coll, you are right, Caton Woodville's saving the guns, and more recently Peter Archer's last stand of the 66th which the BBC are heading the piece with.

As to further reading the only really detailed published account of the battle is by Leigh Maxwell and is called My God Maiwand. Its strength is that he was able to go there before the Soviet invasion in 79. For a wider look at the war you would probably like The Road to Kabul by Brian Robson, which diasgrees in some regards with what Maxwell wrote earlier. Both are a good read.

Peter,

I found that a bit like the average Zulu, the average Afghan has little grasp on the detail of history. I think one of the interesting things about the Cavagnari massacre is that the townsfolk joined in because there was a collective folk memory of the 1841-42 humiliation of the British (matter of national pride and all that) but no similar recollection of the subsequent arrival in Kabul of the 'Army of Retribution'.

One of the difficulties in talking things through of course is that we use a different calendar. So from memory when I was there in 2003, it was in fact 1382 to my interpreter. He was a particularly bright and well educated chap, but I don't think he would have heard of Maiwand. I'm sure it would be different however, if one was to ask about 1880 in Kandahar or points to the west of there, though again there is potential for 1839-42 to blur into 1878-80.

I can't really answer the specific question on lady M (there are several spelling options I think) because when I was there I hadn't researched Maiwand in any detail and it is only now in the last year that I have become aware of her.

AMB

It would be nice to think that when that part of the world is stabilized it would have some potential as a tourist attraction - but gosh who can guess how far away that might be.

As ever

Mike
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Thanks Peter

Mentioning Rudyard, have you happened to read ' That Day ' written by him, to commemorate the 66th Foot at Maiwand ?

I didn't know about Malalai until after I read your posting, but duly checked the internet for information. Thanks for that.

It does appear to be quite a battle, aspects reminding me very much of Isandlwana, the British again, apparently underestimating the enemy, who as with the Zulu (and the Boers if I'm correct) used the terrain to great effect. There are other bits of data I've read, hoping to read more.

Thanks Mike

I've seen the title by Maxwell mentioned several times in the sites I've looked at. I'll try to obtain it, although I expect it'll be next year.

I think (hope) that if you managed to write a book on this specific engagement in the same style of HCMDB/LWOTF, there would be a call for it, especially with it's similarity to Isandlwana. Many of the people from this site I'm sure would be seeking a copy.

If such a recent book was written, The Battle at Maiwand would indeed get more attention.

I'd be one of the first to buy a copy (or 2)

Coll
mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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Coll

Are you sure there is a direct link between 'That Day' and Maiwand, because although I have seen it stated as secondary opinion, I'm pretty sure that Kipling would not have attributed a poem like that to a real regiment or a real event. Frankly it is not very flattering - as the poem is about misbehaviour in the face of the enemy - I have seen nothing in my research to suggest that the 66th did anything other than slog it out in a hopeless situation as bravely as the 24th did.

Even if Kipling did intend a link, which I doubt, then he would have been wrong to make it.

As ever

Mike
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Mike

The reason I asked Peter if he had read this poem, as I had trouble understanding the context it was written in and the association of it to what I've so far read on the internet about the battle. I've never really understood verse, but I didn't make the connection at all.

I saw it on britishbattles.com, at the end of an article about Maiwand, the part in brackets saying it was written by Kipling to commemorate the experience of the 66th at Maiwand.

As I say, I know very little about the details of the battle, less about poetry, but this caught my attention and I hoped someone could 'interpret' its meaning.

Coll
Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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Actually the Battle of Maiwand is not entirely forgotten in contemporary military circles :

http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/search/LessonsLearned/afghanistan/maiwand.asp

The above is a 'lessons learned' article by Colonel Ali A.Jalali, Former Afghan Army and Mr. Lester W. Grau,Foreign Military Studies Office, Fort Leavenworth, KS. that appeared in the May-June 2001 issue of Military Review (rather presciently as it turned out),for those interested in an informative, though technical, accounting of the battle. For further study it also contains a comprehensive bibliography. (The first lesson learned is the rather understated "At a certain point, quantity has a quality all its own.")

I think this battle would present the opportunity for a very interesting discussion but I suppose this isn't really the place for it.

Best

Michael
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peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
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I'm privileged to be the custodian of two medals to men of the 66th Foot involved at Maiwand. Alfred Northcott was killed and is commemorated on the Maiwand Lion in Reading. Charles Baffin, who frustratingly enlisted under a false name, survived the battle and was subsequently besieged in Kandahar.

There is a telling final paragraph in Leigh Maxwell's book, which was published in 1979. Brigadier-General Suleiman, a royal prince, says: "The threat of an armed peasantry in Afghanistan is now so well appreciated abroad that not even the British will ever dare invade us again."

Peter
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Mike

Many thanks for those comments. I suspect stories about the survival of the Maiwand tradition in Afghanistan are therefore exaggerated.


Mike & Coll

"We was put to groomin' camels ..."

Suggests Sudan/Egypt in 1880s rather than Afghanistan (Maiwand), India or Southern Africa (Majuba also not fitting well). Perhaps not an actual event, as Mike suggests? But RK certainly did sometimes refer to actual campaigns and battles - albeit often obliquely and briefly - in his BRBs. One can easily detect Isandlwana and Abu Klea.

Peter


Last edited by Peter Ewart on Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AMB


Joined: 07 Oct 2005
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Tourists to Maiwand? Now, there's a thought! Maybe a hotel very near the site (like the Isandwlana Lodge)? Now, I wonder where we can put that book stand?

AMB
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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AMB,

You could do it with your BBC interview fee, couldn't you?

Regards,

JY
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maiwand
clive dickens


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 162
Location: REDDITCH WORCESTERSHIRE
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Try the following for a good account with plenty of illustrations www.britishbattles.com
Clive
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Thanks Peter

Still, an unusual poem to use for commemorating the experience the 66th had at Maiwand, even if not intended by Kipling himself ?

Clive

I imagine that is the same site mentioned in a previous post, which contains the above poem.

Anyway, saw an excellent review of 'My God - Maiwand'. Definitely appears to be the book to get on the subject.

Coll
BBC HISTORY - MAIWAND
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