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Swinburn-Henry rifle/carbine
paul mercer


Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Tavistock, Devon
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Could someone tell me what the difference is between a Martini-Henry and a Swinburn-Henry rifle or carbine and are they the same calibre ?
Thanks.
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Adrian Whiting


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Dorset, England
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Paul,

John Swinburn had several patents granted through the 1870s for his design of rifle action, which was essentially a variation on the Martini action.

His Model 1875 was available as a rifle or as a carbine. It operated with a breech lever just as a Martini action would. However, internally, it used a "V" spring rather than a coil spring to drive the striker forwards. In addition it had a manually operated cocking lever on the right side of the action body. This meant that the striker and spring could be eased forward into the "fired" position by carefully holding the trigger whilst raising the lever. The cocking lever could then be subsequently used to cock the mechanism without the need to use the underlever for this purpose (which, as in the Martini, ran the risk of ejecting a round). The action attacged to the butt by tangs rather than be a stock bolt (as in the Martini). This meant the action could be located a little further to the rear. The effect of this was to cause an improvement in the trigger mechanism, but apparently the action was found to be less robust than the Martini's.

In 1878 volunteers in Natal ordered 1500 mixed rifles and carbines. All of them were designed to accept a bayonet.

They used the same 577/450 service cartridge as the Martini Henry and stayed in use until 1895 when they were replaced by Martini Metfords - although I expect they were used well after their replacement by others who laid hands on them.

Visually then, the action has a distinctive "hump back" to it, similar to a MkIV MHR. There is a cocking lever on the right side of the action (rather like the lever on a Greener GP Shotgun if you are familiar with them). the carbine is 39 and a half inches long, and weighs 7 and a half pounds. The forend is plain, with no barrel bands or nose cap. The carbine had a black leather backsight cover.

I am aware of at least one photograph of them being carried by a party of what I recall being 90th Mounted Infantry - I expect other contributors can remind me where it can be found!

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Adrian
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Mikey29211


Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Central Nebraska, USA
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Could Pte Hitch in the film "Zulu" be using one? If you notice during the first assault "Counting your guns" and he says "they are standing there just asking for it" you see him load a round, close the breech then twist something on the right side of the reciever before raising it to his shoulder.


Or am i all wet Shocked


Last edited by Mikey29211 on Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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paul mercer


Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Tavistock, Devon
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Great, Adrian, thanks very much for the info!
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Mikey29211


Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Central Nebraska, USA
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Adrian Whiting wrote:

I am aware of at least one photograph of them being carried by a party of what I recall being 90th Mounted Infantry - I expect other contributors can remind me where it can be found!



Is it this one?
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Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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Mikey
What Hitch appears to do is flip the cocking indicator almost like a safety catch, He couldn't do that on a service Martini. a case of Filmland getting it wrong.

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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Isn't the degree of variation in the staining of the helmets interesting.

Adrian

Truly you are the 'guru of guns'. Have you written anything in the public domain? I apologise if you have, are already a recognized authority and it has passed me by. If you haven't, you should consider it. I never quite know where to go for comprehensive coverage of Victorian service firearms (and their use in the field) by a real expert. Am I missing something. Is there something you could recommend. If not please write it.

Regards as ever

Mike
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Adrian Whiting


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Dorset, England
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Mikey,

Spot on - that is indeed the one I had in mind!

Mike,

You are rather too kind - I am just fortnuate in having amassed quite a bit of background material, and sad enough to have read it all!

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Adrian
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Mikey29211


Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Central Nebraska, USA
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Neil Aspinshaw wrote:
Mikey
What Hitch appears to do is flip the cocking indicator almost like a safety catch, He couldn't do that on a service Martini. a case of Filmland getting it wrong.



I thought that too but, last night i watched it again, this time right before he gets shot in the leg, he hops up on the barracade, look at the right side of the receiver (it's a very quick shot), there is a very large lever behind where the cocking indicator should be
and the back of the receiver it has a different shape.
I wish i had the film on DVD so i can take a screen shot. Shocked


Last edited by Mikey29211 on Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sarah89


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 22
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I hardly know anything on the subject, but it also gives me some insight into what my great great grandfather used. And for that picture to be used as well is great, i only got sent it recently because the man in the middle of the photo is my great great grandad so i was fascinated to see what he wore and what guns he used.
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paul mercer


Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Tavistock, Devon
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Adrian,
Were there any other variations of the MH - I seem to remember there was a Peabody Martini, perhaps there are more?
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Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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Paul.

There was a host of Martini's, or derivatives of.

Martini was actually threateded to be sued by Peabody, he actually devised the falling block mechanism, however it had an external hammer, Martini got away without infringing the patent as his pin was concealed in the block.

The Peabody was actually a U.S made Martini, made by the Provenance tool Company, most were made for the Turkish army, the calibre off the top of my head was a metric. 11.4mm

Alexander Henry actually produced a Martini action in 1869, the extraction lever was in front of the trigger and had a knob to facilitate case extraction. It was a stright chamber .450 round, these are often found in Australia.

Westley Richards made a Martini type rifle, this had a differing action known as a francotti action, a the action dropped out in one piece. There was no cocking indicator on the side of the action, but it was integrated to the falling block. The body was very similer to the Mk4 Martini Henry. Most are Marked ZAR Zudanese Africaans Republic) and dated around 1897. The rifling was Henry in .450/.577., although I have seen 9 groove rifling. This action was in my mind the perfact Martini, My BSA international .22" is near identical to this, but in miniture.

On a similat vein was the Westley Richard "monkey tail" which has a falling block, in .450 calible.

The Nepalese made their own adaptation called a Gahendra Martini, externally very similar to the British Martini, but the action was based upon the Westley Richards Design.

Obvioulsy the Swimburn, as discussed.

Those which did not get off the ground was the Martini Enfield Mk1 (1886), a .402" calibre Martini with a quick loader and short range sight, These all became the Martini Henry Mk4. Enfield did develop a .303 Mk5 Martini, but this never really made it, they were simply marked as .303" conversions.


A definative list of Brisith "service martinis would be. In .450"

Mk1 1st, second and third Pattern,(1871-77) The Mk2 (upgraded from 1) & Mk2 (1877-1889) , Mk3 (1879-1885), Mk4 A,B & C pattern (1886-1889). Artillery Carbine, Cavalry Carbine (1877), Garrison Carbine.

.303", Martini Metford and Martini Enfields.

Trying to get them all will cost an arm and a leg!

Neil

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Jeff Dickinson


Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 38
Location: Baltimore, United states
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On the Gun Broker auction page www.gunbroker.com there is a listing for a Swinburn. It's described as a sporter so I would guess differs slightly from the military Carbine and Rifle. They have posted some close up pictures of the action and interesting information about different cartridges. The auction # is 58371631 for anyone interested.
All the Best Jeff
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The Double D


Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Staying Umhlanga for 2 to 5 years in route to Cut Bank, Montana
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Here is a Swinburn, a sporter.



The larger lever on the side is the cocking lever. I am currently shooting one of these in prepearation for the Siege of Ladysmith Provincial Shoot in November. I would not want to depend on that lever to decock the gun. Not only is it hard to control, but the firing pin protrudes when lowered. Not something to do with a live round in the chamber. It might be helpful to retract the firing pin in the case of misfire or pierced primer.

The top rifle below is the ZAR Martini that Neil mentioned and would not have been around for the Anglo Zulu war, but was prominent in the Second Anglo-Boer War. It is based on the Francotte patent and may be more familier in it's smaller size a .22 lr target rifle made by BSA.



The bottom rifle above is the Martini Henry that was used in the Anglo-Zulu War. The rifle displayed is a MK II. Although that pattern was made starting in 1878, the MK I is generally represented as the one used in AZW. Visually there is little difference. For a good on line study of the Martini I suggest you visit two sites. http://www.martinihenry.com and http://www.martinihenry.co.uk/. The Second site I believe is Neil's.

Peabody was never able prevail in his claim that Martini stole his patent. But Westley Richard did. Westley Richards patented his 1868 Model hinged block 40 days before Martini and after the accpetance of the MH a royalty was paid Westly Richards.

The WR 1868 was modified and the 1871 Patent version of it became very popular with the Boers. The WR 1871 becoming known as the Majuba or Free State Martini. The 1868-1871 Series are often refered to as the WR Improved Martini.

The whole controversy over the Peabody-Martini-Westly Richards patent fight is a subject unto itself. If you examine all three actions together you will have no doubt that these are not independent inventions.

Here is the WR Improved Majuba Free State Martini 1871 Patent.



I just recently acquired this one for my collection. It is chambered in WR Carbine 1 1/2. While referencing it I saw mention of cartrdidge cases in this caliber being found either at Rorke's Drift or Isandlwana. It would not be unreasonalbe to think this type of gun were at those battles.

I don't know the histroy of this particular rifle.

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Mikey29211


Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Central Nebraska, USA
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Thats what Hitch is using in the film alright Shocked Very Happy
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Swinburn-Henry rifle/carbine
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