rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - One-Handed Lunge With Fixed Bayonet ?

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:06 pm

Another of my unusual questions, but I would please like to know.

I recall a print from Rorke's Drift, of the fight at the barricades, which was very detailed and dramatic, but I saw one of the soldiers illustrated, holding his MH with fixed bayonet using only his right hand, lunging at a Zulu on the mealie bags, that involved him having to reach further than usual, almost as if was a lance or spear.

Considering the weight, balance and awkwardness of the rifle in doing this, could such a move be made, with enough strength behind it to inflict a wound on an attacker ?

Thanks

Coll

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:52 pm

Coll,

This is the one?

John Y.

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:57 pm

John

That's it ! Very Happy

Please can you tell me where I may have seen it book-wise ?

Excellent image isn't it ?

Thankyou

Coll

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:08 pm

Coll,
That pose is decidedly possible, but the image several frames later (in the same movie) would look entirely different as the momentum and weight (mass?) of the dying Zulu drove the MH backward and landed him on top of the rifleman, no doubt knocking him to the ground. I always imagined that Brits posture as portraying the "follow through" of a two handed lunge at full extension.

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:09 pm

As both feet appear to be in the air, it seems even more implausible! Indeed, it's not entirely clear whether he's on his way up or on his way down ...!

P.

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:10 pm

Coll,

The image comes from The Strand Magazine Volume XXI January-June 1901, from a short story entitled A Hero of the Drift by Walter Wood, based on Rorke's Drift it tells the tale of Assistant-Commissary Railton, a bearded older soldier awaiting his pension.

I'd hazard a guess and say you've seen it in Ian Knight's Rorke's Drift 1879 - 'Pinned like Rats in a Hole', which also contains this image from the same article.

John Y.

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:43 pm

All

Thanks for your replies.

John

That'll be it. I appreciate your inclusion of the additional image.

Coll

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:04 pm

Coll

To use a Martini and bayonet in such a way (in the zulu underarm stab style) would require alot of effort, the weight of the bayonet would make the trust fall low also it would be easy to deflect or wrench from the grip. In reality the men were trained to use "high guard" posture in that situation, or alternatively from the shorten arm posture of bayonet drill which still gives excellent trusting capabilities without loosing grip.
Hook reports using the shorten arms in his report.

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:27 pm

John Y.

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:48 pm

Neil/John

Thanks for the details and the diagrams.

Coll

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:02 pm

There is a book -

Fixed Bayonet. by Alfred Hutton.

I've had this on my 'Books To Get' list for quite some time, as it appears to be very well-illustrated, covering all the methods of 'fencing' with the fixed bayonet, although, using the then new magazine rifle.

It looks like it may be full of quality information, at least, that of which I've been seeking.

Does anyone have a copy or has read it ?

Thanks

Coll

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:51 pm

This particular assault with a bayonet did make it into the official instructions. It is titled the "Throw Point". However the only reference I have for it is in 1911, within the Bayont Fighting Instructions for competition. Although the manual title makes reference to competitions the instructions themselves include that they are intended for use in action.

The instructions contain an illustration of the Throw Point, with a soldier in service dress performing this point with an SMLE and P1907 sword bayonet.

I can find no reference to it in any of the bayonet and sword bayonet exercises of the AZW period, but that is not to say that it was not a point that was taught then.

Having dabbled with bayonet fencing in the past, the views here that the throw point would be unwieldy are correct. If the point makes contact then recovery can be straightforward, subject to the laws of physics as Sawubona indicates. If not, then pulling the bayonet fencing musket back is difficult but it can be caught with the disengaged hand before the tip strikes the ground. Recovering to the guard is a challenge so the point really only ought to be made when success is pretty much assured - all a bit obvious really...!

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:22 pm

Adrian

Thankyou for the details.

When John Prebble was researching for 'Zulu' in the British Museum Library, he made sketches of the British Army bayonet drill, which can be seen in Sheldon Hall's book, page 29.

In the second column, in the second row, there appears to be a sketch of the 'Throw Point', shown as a horizontal action, but the left hand, although difficult to see properly in the sketch, appears to be placed on the left thigh in the pose, perhaps for balance and/or helping with more strength behind this type of lunge ?

Interestingly, there is another move shown in the first column, third row, which appears to demonstrate a two-handed hold of the same trigger-guard/stock area, which seems to give great distance for the lunge, but with the stronger grip of both hands.

However, balance could be an issue again ?

I'm wondering which book he got the details from ?

Coll

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:02 am

Excellent stuff, Adrian! I was exploring further on the Internet about the "throw point" (which I discovered is often called the "lunge out") and came across this site, which has more than you could ever want to know about bayonet drill in the 19th Century (at least in the French army in 1852) complete with pictures: http://home.att.net/~Rebmus/Bayonet.htm

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:43 pm

With a bit of searching I did turn up this reference in Hutton's work on Bayonet Fencing, 1882. This is not an official War Office Instruction and I still cannot find any reference to it in any of those regulations pre 1911, but he clearly refers to the same point. In his preface he indicates that the movements of bayonet fencing are intended for the soldier to use in action, and as such are simpler than those for sword fencing, and also have straightforward names. Alfred Hutton had served in the Kings Dragoon Guards.

Points.

1st Point
Advance the musket smartly towards the part aimed at, as far as the arms and extension of the right leg can reach.

Point in Tierce
Turn the musket-sling uppermost, raise the butt and hand as high as the ear, the back of the hand being towards the ear, and advance the point as far as the arms and extension can reach.

The Throw
In making this point the grip of the left hand is slackened, so as to allow the musket to glide through it. It should not be used as a rule, but only exceptionally, as occasion requires. I do not approve of quitting the grip with the left hand entirely, as it renders the bayoneteer liable to be disarmed.

Coll, I agree, I suspect the two handed grip is to aid recovery. I don't think it would give significant extra reach when the single handed throw point involves turning the torso as you lunge. Hutton is very clear on the limited utility of the point!