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Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 5:01 pm

I have to say that the more I look at poor Reggie Younghusband the more I think he is Harry Flashman. I know the hair and whiskers are a different colour but old Reggie looks a bit of cad don't you think?!! Evil or Very Mad

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:04 am

But wasn't Flashman a fictional character taken from the Tom Brown's Schooldays book? And Younghusband was no cad in the way he fought his battle at Isandlwana.

Unfair comparison, I say.

Dawn

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:16 am

Dawn,

You're quite right Flashman was in Thomas Hughes' 1905 novel, Tom Brown's Schooldays.

However in 1969 the author George MacDonald Fraser breathed 'new life' in the character, when he produced his first work based on The Flashman Papers.

For more information about Harry Flashman, who was present at the Battles of Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift take a look at http://www.harryflashman.org.uk/

John Y.

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 9:21 am

I only meant that in his picture he looks like he has that mischievous look about him. It was never my intention to question his bravery. Out of all those who fought at Isandlwana it is Younghusband that has always fascinated me most.

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:16 am

Kenty,
I too am fascinated by Younghusband. If the tradition is to be believed, the Zulu paused their thirst for blood (impi imbovi) out of respect for the his bravery and that of his companions, and while they did he calmly shook hands with each and all of them (save one) on that ledge. Can we find a more perfect Victorian officer mindset?

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:56 am

Kenty

I just thought it unusual you should be comparing the looks of a real life character to a fictional one. Smile

Dawn

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:33 pm

Sawubona wrote:

Kenty,
I too am fascinated by Younghusband. If the tradition is to be believed, the Zulu paused their thirst for blood (impi imbovi) out of respect for the his bravery and that of his companions, and while they did he calmly shook hands with each and all of them (save one) on that ledge. Can we find a more perfect Victorian officer mindset?

Sawubona

I've always tried to imagine what it was like in those last moments but strangely until I went on the Holts Tour last year I'd never really given as much thought to Anstey's last stand, which now equally fascinates me (purely morbid of course!).

I don't suppose you have any thoughts as to when these two desparate actions took place i.e. did they occur roughly at the same time?

One thing I will say and it doesn't really matter which camp you are in with regards to Melvill & Coghill, having done that arduous trail, crossed the Mzinyathi, albeit in pants and a rubber tyre (!!) and ascending that final hill to their graves my first thoughts were, and I make no apologies for the language, "you unlucky b**tards". Fate was not kind to those gentleman and it does make you wonder why.

Kenty

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:45 pm

Sawubona

Your cautious caveat in wondering if "the tradition is to be believed" with regard to this rather romantic handshake (and a respectful pause by the Zulus to allow it to occur) is, I suspect, a wise one.

I wonder what the source can be for this "tradition." Or even how long this "tradition" has been a tradition. The well known report by the uNokhenke interviewee mentions only the rush downhill and an officer's sword brandished. Was there another Zulu eye-witness who left an account of this moment?

Unless I've missed it somewhere, this tradition that Younghusband (and I suppose it is natural to assume the officer with the sword was Younghusband but surely this can only be a likelihood or probability, not a certainty?) shook hands with his men has been a "tradition" only since - surprise, surprise - Morris claimed the scene for TWOTS. And his source? Well, we know the answer to that.

As far as I can see, in published works only Edgerton has followed Morris. Knight (several times) Gon, L&Q and Snook have chosen not to follow suit, perhaps recognising a yarn when they see it. More importantly, perhaps, we don't see Jackson even remotely toying with such an idea, quoting - as one would expect - the uNokhenke account exactly as originally published. And Morris was not picking it up from Coupland.

And the story of the noble savage pausing to allow the ceremony to take place? I don't know of any published account (in print) which takes the scene that far. Is there one? I'll bet there is no source cited! Deduction and elimination points to the company on the ledge being Younghusband's. Common sense suggests the chap with the sword was probably him. And that's about it, isn't it?

Sawubona, I entirely agree with your cautious approach!

Peter

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:08 pm

As I always thought then, the Zulu had no respect nor admiration for "fellow braves" (he asks with an arched eyebrow)? What can we suppose the "typical" Zulu thought of the "typical" redcoat in the fading light of that day in January of 1879?
Death is certain for all, but hopefully for most of us not imminent. Yet in those uncommon instances, when a man (or woman) realizes all hope is finally gone and dignity is all that's left, shouldn't it be expected and accepted that onlookers (Black, White, or whatever) might feel a certain pride to be in the presence of and to witness the final act of such a man? And maybe this onlooker can even forget what color he is and which side he's on? "They know how to die", said one British respectful soldier at Omdurman.
I first heard that particular "tradition" within spitting range of Younghusband's cairn in front of the cave on Isandlwana. Hey, maybe it was the time, the place, the sky or the rocks, but it somehow seemed right and (surprise, surprise) it still does! If it wasn't written about, then no one wrote about it. If it wasn't read about, then no one read it. Yet it did happen.

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:19 am

I suspect that in any final stand, the imminent victors are only too pleased to finish off the job. It's a romantic notion that the brave men, fighting to the last, would be given time to bid farewell to their comrades, but I doubt if that happens. The Zulus knew that victory was theirs and would have only wanted to hasten the end.
Another example to consider was Custer's troopers huddled together at the Little Bighorn. Just read the Indian accounts of their end, firing in volleys of arrows, a quick rattle of rifle fire into the bodies and then charge in to finish the job with knives and axes. Nasty but necessary !

Graham

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:32 am

Sawubona

I'm entirely with you on your 2nd para. There are numerous accounts from Zulu participants of their unqualified admiration at the way the 24th died; and just as many accounts by British soldiers during 1879 of their astonishment and respect for Zulu "pluck."

We certainly cannot say that such a moving scene involving Younghusband wouldn't fit the bill. Perhaps we should follow the lead of the inimitable Neville Cardus, who, when challenged in later life about the veracity of some of his more spectacular stories, is supposed to have issued the rejoinder: "Well, perhaps it didn't happen quite like that, but it certainly should have done." (And if I've misquoted him, I've probably set off another myth!!!)

Peter

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:32 am

Or "Never let the facts spoil a good story."

Peter

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:50 am

You fellows will be denying that Father Christmas exists next!

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:09 am

Peter

Quite so - I omitted the handshake because although it appears in Morris it is not sourced.

More generally to all,

In addition to the brief Zulu account of the charge and whirling sword man there is this from Browne:

I had often looked back and seen that the fighting was over in camp, but that one company in company square was retreating slowly up the hill surrounded by a dense swarm of Zulus. This was Captain Younghusband's Company. They kept the enemy off as long as their ammuntion lasted then used the bayonet until at last, overcome by numbers, they fell in a heap as the brave British Tommy should.

We mustn't lose sight of the fact that uniquely amongst the sources Browne was actually watching the battle through his binoculars.

How did he pin it down to Younghusband's company - well of course he didn't write his memoirs the day after the battle but at a point in time when it was well established that it was C Coy which had got onto the ledge.

How did they know? This from Wilsone Black:

About sixty bodies lay on the rugged slope, under the southern precipice of Isandlwana, among them those of Captain Younghusband, and two officers unrecognizable; it looked as if these had held the crags and fought together as long as ammuniton lasted.

So deductions:

1. C Coy kept together.
2. One of the other bodies was therefore almost certainly Hodson of C Coy.
3. There was a mystery officer interloper from another coy (your guess is as good as mine but a E or F Coy offr is by virtue of these companies' position a good bet) - but it can't be Anstey.
4. Younghusband was in the right place to lead the charge witnessed by the Zulu and was almost certainly the senior officer present and ipso facto the man who led the charge.
5. There is no watertight guarantee that he was the man with the sword. This could have been Hodson for example, while Younghusband had a revolver say, or perhaps another sword which just wasn't whirled at that precise moment, or perhaps both a pistol and a sword. Who knows. But Younghusband being the man with the sword, is by far the best metaphor for the moment, and it is at least a fair bet historically, which when writing up the battle I was happy to accept on a strong balance of probability.

However, no handshake. This is an act of limpness. You have to be howling mad with adrenalin to do what the Zulu source tells us they did. Much more likely, as I have Younghusband doing in HCMDB - he would communicate his intent to charge with a roar to grab the men's attention, a demon's scowl, a fiercely clenched sword and a roared command to signify the off.

There is no question of a polite pause from the Zulu side. They were howling mad with blood lust. The Zulu sources make it abundantly clear that they experienced a sensation of being in a very stiff and dangerous fight, (when they got to the saddle) while they were living through it at the time, and record subsequent expressions of admiration for the way the enemy died.

Hope the quotes are helpful to the discussion.

Regards

Mike

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:12 am

It would be so nice if its true, however i cannot see it happening, certainly not in the red hot heat of battle, but it makes for a sense of Victorian melodrama quite nicely, and would make a nice piece in a film Rolling Eyes