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Isandlwana - Original sound track
ayr41


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Ayr Scotland
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Can anyone shed light on this for me, I have a copy of the original motion picture sound track ZULU and other themes by Ron Barry. The first track is titled MAIN TITLE THEME - Isandhlwana 1879, where does this spelling come from with the extra "H" or is there more than one pronounciation / spelling, first time I have noticed this different from Isandlwana.

Stephen.
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Stephen

Once the various versions of Isandula etc had settled down to Isandhlwana by (in most cases, but not all) 1880 or so, this remained the accepted spelling in English until comparatively recently - say, the last 20 years or so approximately. Anything published in English up to around the 1980s (roughly) will spell the place Isandhlwana, and in some publications well after that. So the current spelling is very recent indeed.

Modern Zulu orthographical decisions are the reason - and it's a long story! You'll note that both Julian Whybra and Martin Everett deliberately choose to retain the "original" spelling because it refers to a time and event which was spelt that way in contemporary sources.

I believe I'm right in saying that the change involves the meaning of the word which describes the placename - over which there has been much discussion and disagreement for over 120 years. (The hand or the house & the 2nd stomach, etc etc etc). I'm not certain whether the pronunciation is affected ("dl" versus "dhl") bearing in mind the beginning and end of the respective syllables, but someone here will know.

Peter
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Haydn Jones


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Gloucester
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Peter Ewart wrote:
Stephen

I believe I'm right in saying that the change involves the meaning of the word which describes the placename - over which there has been much discussion and disagreement for over 120 years. (The hand or the house & the 2nd stomach, etc etc etc). I'm not certain whether the pronunciation is affected ("dl" versus "dhl") bearing in mind the beginning and end of the respective syllables, but someone here will know.

Peter


I have seen the consonant dl described as "the voiced form" of the consonant hl. The pronunciation of the latter is often likened to the Welsh ll as in Llanelli (with maybe - at least in my case - a bit more air and saliva going on around the tongue!!!). Technically, and interestingly in the context of this particular thread, dl should sound much like d+hl pronounced simultaneously. Tricky. You really need to listen to Mother tongue speakers to appreciate the difference.

I don't know whether dropping the "h" changes the meaning. I'm off to SA shortly so I will try and find out from an isiZulu speaker and post a reply on return (although, as Peter implies, someone here may already know in the meantime).

Hope this is helpful.

H
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Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 377
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Talking of variant name spellings, the composer of the score for "Zulu" is of course JOHN Barry, not Ron...
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Stephen,
Once again, you have "overturned a rock to reveal a mamba"! This is not a wise course to take for you nor I, but I will put it my two-bits anyway. "Proper" spelling (read transliteration of Zulu) seems to be very important on this site and apparently is as important (or more so) than what you are trying to say. Regardless, I, at least, know what you mean whether or not you use two "H"'s or no "I" or no "W" or whatever. Incoming!
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Alan
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Wales
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On this site we use the spelling Isandhlwana when refering to the place in its historic usage, particularly in the AZW. We use Isandlwana to distinguish the modern usage as relates to the place today. So there!

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ayr41


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Ayr Scotland
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Sorry about the "Ron" Barry, must be getting mixed up with the racehorse trainer, thanks for all the info this brings back shades of a place I used to go through a lot pronounced "Lemster" but spelt Leominster, bit like up here near Glasgow - Milgarvie, but pronounced Milgie. I surpose I better stop as I could open a hornets nest on this.
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Alan,
Thanks for the clarification on the "h" thing! I forget sometimes that it's only by dint of the hard work and time invested by our moderators (you and your comrades in arms) that I have even have this forum to air my anarchistic views and statements! But I can air them thanks to you, and I thank you all for that. So there!
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Haydn Jones


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Gloucester
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ayr41 wrote:
I surpose I better stop as I could open a hornets nest on this.


Not a hornets nest as far as I'm concerned but rather a perfectly valid question which I, for one, found interesting (though my teenage son thinks me "sad" Rolling Eyes !).

Consider this though. In his 1883 book "Through the Zulu Country" etc. etc., Bertram Mitford said that although the spelling "Isandhlwana" was "now universally employed", Isandhlwane "is the more correct" Shocked. He went on to say that the meaning was "neither 'little hand', nor 'little house', nor any other of the hundred and one interpretations which were devised at the time of the disaster, but refers to a portion of bovine intestinal anatomy."

Hmmm.....on second thoughts, maybe you're right. Who needs hornets anyway?!!!! Wink
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Dewi Evans


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Chwilog, North Wales
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Confused To add to the debate, on the 'Map of Zululand with The Adjoining Frontiers' a supplement to the The Illustrated London News, March 1st 1879, Isandlwana is refered to as ISANDULA or INSANDUSANA!

Dewi.
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Which is my point! When a man has had half of his skull blown off by 480 grains of solid lead from the "most sphosticated rifle in the world" and his friends are slipping and slidding in the pools of his blood and brains, he probably doesn't care much about the spelling of the place where it occured!
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Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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One reference that I found interesting, from a South African website, is the interpretation of [I]Sandlwana as "little houses" based on the British tents first seen by the Zulus at the base of the hill rather than any previous Zulu name. In fact the author claims that the hill had a different name entirely prior to 20 Jan 1879. Sandlwana being a name for the entire area. ( Please note I only said interesting!)

[Readers interested in a South African-centric view of the history, traditions and cultures of the many peoples of South Africa may be interested in visiting http://www.sacultures.org.za for some very different insights on how South Africans view themselves and their history today. (Thankfully English is included as one of the cultures so English translations of the pages are only a click away!) Some of the site is still under construction but there is much of interest to be gleaned.]

MAB
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Sawubona

I hadn't quite understood your earlier post but you've clarifed matters now.

Surely Stephen was originally saying that he had only just come across this spelling of Isand(h)lwana and, before then, had been familiar only with Isandlwana. "Where does this spelling come from?" he asked. As the currently accepted spelling is of relatively recent vintage I thought it might help to mention this and to give him a tiny bit of background on what has always been an interesting, if not complex, topic (on which I'm hardly an authority). And where the meaning of the placename itself is concerned, contention and disagreement have been constant for all of 127 years - which makes it interesting, fascinating even (for some!)

In my humble opinion, spelling is important per se, although that hasn't always been the case and, judging by some of the stuff seen these days, it may not be again in the future! I'll be the very first to agree with you, however, that spelling or pronunciation would not have been the most important thing on the mind of a soldier locked in combat on 22 Jan 1879!!!

Dewi: That's what I was referring to when I said the variety of spelling versions had more or less settled down by 1880 or so, but during 1879 itself the variety was endless - Isandulana, Isandlana etc - as both colonists and British (in the press & in correspondence) struggled to concur on a single accepted spelling. There was no "English-language" mission station within 30 miles of Isandlwana inside Zululand in the 1870s, although those at kwaMagwaza, Etalaneni and St Paul's did use that track to Rorke's Drift occasionally, as did the traders and hunters obviously, so they knew the crag well, but I've yet to come across a single reference to the nameplace published before 1879.

I suppose there is nothing surprising about the variety of spelling or pronunciation during 1879 - it is not an easy word for a European to pronounce properly and the spelling must have been guesswork for some time. Look at the variety of versions Chelmsford used during 1879 - in the end I think the British press followed what was written in the Natal press, although one British paper during 1879, exasperated at all the changes and indecision, announced haughtily that it had decided on Isandula and that was that - they were not going to change any more!

Peter
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Haydn Jones


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Gloucester
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Sawubona

Like Peter, I too, can now see where you are "coming from". I very much agree with his response to you.

I would only add that in addition to spelling, the original question also raised the issue of pronunciation which is where I came in with my "two cents" (or is it "bits"?? Wink ) worth. I accept your point entirely but at the same time I do want to try and understand the quirks and complexities of Zulu language/culture as best I can. One man's meat.......................

Michael

Great link. Don't know how I've missed it. Thank you.

H
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Dewi Evans


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Chwilog, North Wales
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Peter

Very interesting, thank you.

Regards,

Dewi.
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Isandlwana - Original sound track
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