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The Flag @ RD
Andrew Bush


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 66
Location: Melbourne Australia
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Regarding the Flag at RD all the books I have read from, I cannot recollect the men who actually fought there ever mentioning a flag . Yet in several books it states with a photo was this the flag at RD. I personally believe there was not a flag at RD, and if there was which defenders made comment of it and where did it come from and who made it etc????????????????

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Andrew
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear Andrew,


You may be correct. A Union Flag belonging to 25B/1428 Dmr Evan Jones was donationed to the museum by his great great Granddaughter - a former Miss World - who are we to refuse a pretty face - whether it did fly over Rorke's Drift is another matter - on the other hand it may have been the flag used to dress his coffin at his funeral in Welshpool in 1931.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Rob Dumelow


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Staffordshire, UK
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I seem to recall the flag at the Brecon museum when I went there around a year ago now, but can't recall any details regarding it's source etc.

The only thing I can remember about a flag at Rorke's Drift mentioned by any of the defenders is that Chard stated:

We improvised a flag, and our signals were soon replied to from the column


Prior to Chelmsford's arrival at the post, though what this flag was and who or how it was made remains a mystery. Anyone have anything else on this?
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Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 437
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The Crealock and the Bourne sketches of Rorke's Drift do not show any flag or flagpole but the Chard sketch does show a man atop the store roof waving a flag - could this be the flag referred to?
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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I know it is only a secondary source, but the author was in South Africa in 1879, so he might have heard something. Henry Rider Haggard writes the following in his article The Tale of Isandhlwana & Rorke's Drift:
...What then was their joy when they perceived a Union Jack flying amidst the smoke, and heard the ring of a British cheer rising from the shattered walls and defences of sacks of corn!...


A Union Jack no less so there must have been a ship there after all, as 'Jacks' only fly from ships! (See elsewhere on the forum.)

John Y.
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Alan
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Wales
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Beg to differ again John. I believe that 'Jack' is an officially accepted version whether at sea or not.

The Flag Institute is of the following opinion:
It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".


Last edited by Alan on Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Andrew Bush


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 66
Location: Melbourne Australia
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so who was carrying a flag in the company???, I think some one might of being waving a sheet or something similar but not a flag

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GlennWade


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Swansea
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Anyone really. I think it very possible that a Union flag/Jack could have been either at the post possibly marking it as a British garrison or in the personal belongings of someone.
If it was there in some sort of official capacity then maybe it was just on a small pole that was taken down when the camp was broken to prepare the defence or from a post on the store roof or something.
The other possibility is that one of the Officers or O/Rs had one in their baggage. You can see how many of today's troops, and I dare say Mike Snook can vouch for this, have a flag with them while serving abroad. Of course, no primary sources but still not impossible.

Cheers

Glenn
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Alan,

I was only going by http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp

I didn't want to upset the person on that site as its her birthday tomorrow! But I do disagree with the comment about 58th Regiment, so maybe I shouldn't have set too much store by that website! The reign of Charles II, recent times, come on now, who are you trying to kid?

You just don't know who to trust these days, do you?

John
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Peter Quantrill
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At a talk the other day I was berated for referring to the "Union Jack" and was reminded by a member of the Senior Service present that the "Jack" flew from the bow of a ship. On my part, it was a slip of the tongue as I had meant to say, "Flag."
Last week an extensive article appeared in the overseas edition of a UK paper by Cheryl Stonehouse dealing with the subject. Apologies if this has been repeated. Here are a few of the salient points mentioned.
Jack comes from 'jacques' a name for the padded leather jerkin worn by soldiers and often decorated with the emblem of patron saints. By the time of the Union Jack's creator,( James 1,) the anglicised version had come to mean a small identifying flag flown at the bow of a ship.
A Royal proclamation of 1674 during Charles 11's reign refers to "His Majesty's Jack" commonly called "The Union Jack."
The report goes on to add, " People who now insist it should be called the Union Flag as opposed to the Union Jack may care to reflect that the latter was good enough for King Charles."
There is a good deal more detail in the article which I can place on the forum if requested. What is apparent is that only a Welsh emblem is missing or absent from the flag and they remain, from the viewpoint of a flag, the forgotten nation of the Union.
Time for the Red Dragon to make an appearance?
Alan
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Wales
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Peter,
I think there was one designed with Wales included but as you can see, it didn't quite work.


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Rob Dumelow


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Staffordshire, UK
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Just read Surgeon Reynold's report (unabridged in Rorke's Drift by Adrian Greaves) and he states that the flag waved to the approaching party of mounted infantry from Chelmsford's forces was in fact nothing more than a plain white sheet, probably just taken from the store, and did not resemble any form of actual flag. I would have assumed that had a Union Flag been present on the day then they would have waved this instead as it would have been more readily recognised.

In my opinion there was unlikely to have been any flag at the post for this reason, though it does seem strange that the camp would have been without one, perhaps it was packed away very well and forgotten about by the defenders or buried under the other baggage from the camp and they were not able to reach it easily.

Of course there probably would have been a flag flown at the post (or Fort Bromhead) after the camp as Chelmford would probably have had one in his forces possession.
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Some eyewitness evidence, for people to mull over.

Trooper Fred Symons, Natal Carbineers states:
..."What has become of our comrades? each enquired of his neighbour, as we marched mournfully along the road leading down towards the drift.
"What is that on the wall?"
"It's a man waving a flag," someone shouted. ...

Walter Wood in his interview with A. H. Hook V.C., records:
'...Two of our men had been on the roof of the storehouse signalling with flags when the Zulus meant to attack us. This gave us time to make ready for them. The signallers were still able to stand above the ground, so that they could be seen at a good distance. We saw their flags going wildly. What was it? Everybody was mad with anxiety to know whether it could be firends to relieve us, or more Zulus to destroy us. We watched the flags flapping, and then learnt that signals were being made in reply. ...'

Two separate accounts one from the relieving force, the other from a defender. But it seems to me they are both relating the same event, maybe that is the answer: signal flags?

Or for those who still like a little myth, how about this from the pen of C. Stein, who in his near contemporary account writes:
'...their advanced guard of mounted men strained eager eyes towards Rorke's Drift. The British flag still waved over the storehouse,...'

John Y.
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The Flag @ RD
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