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Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:59 am

Here's one for the mathematicians (of which I am not one)

How many men were in the camp at Isandlwana on the night of 21 January? Before Lord C left. This includes both white and black. I have tried to add it up and I get approx figures of 1500 white men and about 3000 natives. It doesn't have to be exact. I think I've read it somewhere in one of my many reference books but do you think I can find it now? So I've turned to "Hill of the Sphinx" and tried to add it up from the appendices at the back. Perhaps someone out there can put me out of my misery.

Dawn
(PS I almost failed maths!! Does it show? Laughing

)

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:56 pm

Dear Dawn,

I can give you confirmed numbers for the 24th (1st and 2nd Battalions)

- 21 officers and 575 men with 10 survivors (survivors all from 1st Battalion or Mounted Infantry).

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:02 am

Martin
That seems a little low. I'm actually refering to the night before the 22nd when the camp was at full strength except for Dartnells lot out towards the Mangeni Valley.

I think I might look at the appendices at the back of Hill of the Sphinx, take the figures for the number of men at Isandlwana (they are seperated into their different branches) and put them into an excel spreadsheet and see what I come up with.

Would anyone be interested in the result when I'm done?

Or is there anyone out there able to save me the trouble? (please! Confused

)

Dawn

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:38 am

Dawn,

Sorry, these are casualties. You really need someone to list the numbers quoted in the Narrative of Field Operations published by the War Office in 1881 - pages 156 and 157. I am sure someone has more time than iat the moment to respond to you.

Why is this book not in your library - reprint by Greenhill Books in 1989?

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:37 pm

Martin

Would this be available in a library here in New Zealand? I would have thought only UK libraries would have it. Unless it's in the National Archives in Wellington.

Dawn

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:11 am

Hi Dawn

My attempt has it : Officers (67) NCO's & Men (1,707)

Officers Killed (52) NCO's & Men killed (806) Natives Killed (471)

Andy
Surprised

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:17 am

If I am reading the tables in front of me correctly then I have it as 764 Imperial Forces, 1452 Colonial Forces.

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:07 am

Hope this helps Dawn,

(I just happen to have a copy with me!)

"Srength of Columns

No. 3

20 Staff and Departments, 132 Royal Artillery, 6 7-prs., 2 rocket troughs [perhaps the rockets given to No. 2 column? Would then have to deduct 32 men, I think, and then only if troops seconded were then considered to be technically in the new arm.] 1,275 infantry, 320 Cavalry, 2,566 Native Contingent, 346 conductors, drivers, and foreloopers [sic], 1,507 oxen, 49 horses, 67 mules, 220 wagons and 82 carts. Total 4,709 officers and men."

From this must be subtracted Dartnell's force which according to the same source "...about 150 strong [mounted]... 16 companies, eight from each of the two native battalions, two companies of each being left in camp." I'm not sure how many men were in each of these companies.

Actually I'm not sure how accurate any of these numbers are as they seem to have been compiled from the original 5 column lists as planned rather than "as built".

Best

Michael

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:48 am

Michael

Thanks, that's a BIG help! I can work out Dartnells force from my notes and deduct from your figures so that's fantastic.

And you just happen to have these figures on you! Last I heard, you were on the road, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and yet you still can turn in the information. You're a legend!

(Do they say that over here or is it a unique Aussie/Kiwi saying?)

Dawn

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:59 am

Dawn,

I think the saying here is "Legend in his own mind!" I always bring a few books to read and help unwind after these long night shifts, just happens that I'm up to "Narrative..." so I made a few notes at the motel and brought them in to work. Luckily Sat. and Sun. shifts are a good deal less hectic than the rest of the week so I can pop in on breaks now and then.

I am curious as to the veracity of the numbers quoted in "Narrative..." though, still it seems a great reference for logistic details and well worth adding to ones library. (The reprint is still widely available from on-line book sellers but the price varies widely.)

"Shucks ma'am, jast doing ma job."

Michael

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:56 am

For all those who can tear themselves away from the soccer being played in a foreign country right now, I have some statistics. These were gleaned from a footnote in the Sonia Clarke's book "Zululand at War 1879" and reads:

"French's work contains a detailed 'Composition of the British Columns and distribution of troops on 11 January 1879' with the strength of the columns estimated as follows: No.1 - 4750; No.2 - 3871; No.3 - 4709; No.4 - 2278; No.5 - 1565: Lord Chelmsford pp391-397"

Dawn

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:39 pm

Dawn

The appendix in French to which you referred is just a lift from the Narrative, and gives the same details. So, if you have French ...

With regard to the NNC, each company had a complement of 100 Africans with three European officers and six non-commissioned officers. They did not, of course, actually have that number of men but you can estimate that there may have been some 800 men out with the NNC on the 21st/22nd.

Good luck with your maths.

KIS

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:27 am

Keith

Unfortunately I don't have French, just that quote from it. However I have recently acquired "Zulu War" by Ian Knight and Ian Castle and the Order of Battle gives the strength of No.3 Column as follows:

20 staff and depts
132 Royal Artillery
1275 infantry
320 calavary
2566 Native Contingent
246 Conductors, drivers and voorloopers
Total officers and men: 4709

As the totals tally, I would presume that the authors of the above book got their details from French.

Now, as you say, I just have to calculate how many were out with Dartnell.

Dawn

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:42 am

Dawn

I think you mean 346 conductors, drivers etc. Yes, these are the same figues as in the Narrative and French. However, the number quoted for the NNC of 2566 is probably high.

Sir Henry Bulwer quotes a figure for the 3rd Regiment as being 1933 men for both battalions, at 12th January (Pietermaritzburg Archives Repository, SNA 1/6/11 No. 369: Bulwer to Sir Bartle Frere). On the 16th January �Colonial Secretary states that Commandant Lonsdale reports that his Regiment still requires 300 men to make up its complement & directs RM [Resident Magistrate] to report what steps he has taken to produce more men.� (Same source) Astonishingly, however, only two days earlier, Lieutenant Henry Harford, Staff Officer to Lonsdale, had sent the following note to the Resident Magistrate at Ladysmith:
'In case Com�t Lonsdale has forgotten to send a line about the Natives, could you kindly prevent any more joining. They are dropping in, in half-dozens, & we are now some 300 & so over our strength. If you would kindly see to this I should be obliged.
I know Lonsdale said he was going to send a line but now it may have slipped his memory & as I am his S.O. for the present I just send a line.' (Pietermaritzburg Archives Repository, CSO 1925, No. 494: Staff Officer, 3rd Regiment to Mr Moodie, Ladysmith)

It is likely that some 300 of these men were at Rorke's Drift with Captain Stephenson and departed with undue haste at the approach of the Zulu reserve. So we may never know just how many NNC there were on 21st/22nd January.
KIS

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:54 am

Keith

Thanks for the input. I'd agree with you on the numbers of the NNC as this is a bit of a moving target, and I don't think the exact numbers can ever be ascertained.

And yes, oops, it is 346 conductors. I did say I wasn't good with figures!

Dawn