rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - Zulu atrocities against the drummer boys?

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:06 am

Tom

I am of the opinion it could have been both personal sadism and the collection of muti. I still stand by my assumption that in a force of 20,000 there are sure to be sadists and those of twisted mind who are capable of torture. If we take into account these modern occurences with the killing of children it is likely that in 1879, when muti and the supernatural were an important aspect of Zulu belief, that this would have been willingly practised by certain iSangoma and warriors.

John

I think you mentioned this on the old forum if I recall? Certainly, if and when it is published it will make for fascinating if stomach churning reading.

Glenn

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:20 am

I think we all agree that some of the boys were hung on meathooks. We have the eyewitness accounts. What is always going to confound us is why?

Torture, sadism, entertainment (try watching a few modern computer games for how violence can be entertaining!!), vengeance, muti killing, the list could go on and on while we progressively lose breakfast, lunch and dinner.

As for Raubenheim, there is this from Zulu Vanquished by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill: "Nearby the body of Trooper Raubenheim was found tied to a stake. There would have been no point in tying a dead body to a stake and it would be reasonable to conclude that, at the time of capture, Raubenheim was still alive and was subsequently tortured, his body parts used thereafter for doctoring purposes. It was the only recorded (my emphasis) incident of torture inflicted by the Zulus on prisoners."

Dawn

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:15 am

Thanks for the Raubenheim information John. I look forward to reading it one day. It sounds very interesting. I agree whole-heartedly with Glenn on his assuming that every group of soldiers must by the shear size of the force involved have in it people capable of sadistic acts. Given the frenzy of battle and the blood lust involved I rule out nothing.

Unless someone comes up with concrete proof somehow (Tardis anyone?), or irrefutable documentation in an old box in an attic then we shall never know. Which after all is what makes this particular battle so intriguing.

BTW Dawn, You were correct about my dinner. Just could't face my liver and onions last night Wink

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:55 am

Dawn

Sorry but I, for one, don't agree that the Boys were hung on meat hooks. The evidence is to unreliable to come to that conclusion with any certainty.

KIS

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:51 pm

As I've been reading comments by many here on torture I"d like to suggest that it is surprsing NOT to find so many references to barbarity in the AZW between the Zulu and the British as compared to other conflicts. It's interesting to note that there was far more barbarity in the war between the Mau-Mau and British when the were fighting. Some of the descriptions I've read are truly harrowing. Yet to my knowledge we don't see this in the AZW as such. Really these are attributed to isolated incidents. I would tend to think that abuses would have been much more prevalent in SA during 1879 being that the powers that were fighting were so different from each other in many respects. That makes a gulf where a "do what you will" ethos could make inroads.

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:07 pm

I must agree with Keith Smith. .....One who has done much research on the subject.

I have yet to see or read anything that convinces me that any of the 'boys' were strung up, on meat hooks, gallows, riem drying frames or otherwise, or tortured, abused, or 'buggrd' in any way other than the ritual disembowelling, and obviously their initial mortal wounds.

My questions are;

1. Did the burial party/ witnesses have to cut any remains from the frame/scaffold/meat hooks that they might have been affixed to ?

2. Were there any bodies or body parts (i.e. hands/wrists) still attached to any frame/scaffold/meat hook, actually described by any of the 'original sources', witnesses, or other interested parties ?

3. Were there any body parts seen to have been missing from any of the 'boys' that might lead anyone to surmise that they had been mutilated for 'muti' ?

After the time interval between disaster and burial, given the decomposition, the 'washing of the spears', the looting, and the scavengers, I would find it hard to believe that anyone could accurately come to any conjecture as to what had actually happened to any of the bodies, before, during, or after death.

I would find it credible, that if there were hooks/meat hooks hanging in the vicinity of any of the 'boys' last stand, that they might have been picked up by a large, strong zulu warrior, and hung up by the clothing, as something more akin to an act of 'battlefield humour' than anything more sinister, before being despatched after they had got tired of playing 'silly buggers'. (sory for the pun)

But I have to date not seen or read anything that might suggest this.

Any witness cite any clothing remains still attached to meat hooks ?

Just didn't happen in my opinion, until I see something to convince me otherwise.

Sean

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:03 pm

[Didn't have time to post this last night and little time now.]

Sorry compadres, but I'm afraid we don't all agree with boys on meathooks. I will accept Raubenheim's torture based partly on Ron's and Peter's conclusion cited by Dawn above and primarily on John Young's assessment (given his day job I trust his ability to evaluate evidence!). However I maintain reservations on the boys.

I'm not comfortable with assigning action or motive comparing contemporary Zulu culture with that of the Kingdom days. There's been way too much water under that bridge and it would be anthropologically misleading to draw too close parallels.

My primary reservation is the lack of corroberating evidence. I'm not particularly familiar with the state of the British press in 1879 but I know that that era in the States saw the birth of "Yellow Journalism" where the press had field days with "Indian atrocities" and I find it curious that the newspapers of the time didn't pick it up and run with it, it surely would have sold alot of papers. I also find it curious how similar the account of the boys is with that of S-D when he describes the Zulu strung up on 'his' drying rack at RD.

There has been interesting speculation on the effects of alcohol and drugs (still trying to get to the bottom of the snuff thing) and odds of percentages of sociopaths in the Zulu ranks ( I'd need a good anthropological study there) are open to debate.

[Shoot, outta time!]

MAB

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:27 pm

If the Zulus did what they are supposed to have, i would have put down this act to the johnny come latelys, the ones who were at the back, who missed the fighting and carnage.

Most of the zulus who had been in the fighting or thick of it, would have been in my opinion blown, mentally and physically shattered, with or without affects of snuff, they also would have probably been the ones who were looking after their wounded mates, as well zulus arent different from anyone else, they had mates!

Now the ones who came in last, are likely to be highly agigtated, they have missed the killing and probably ritual disembowelment, don't want to appear unblooded in their military caste (for a better word) and need a target to take out their frustration on, hence the faint chance they hung up the bodys of men and boys and took out their frustrations on their lifeless bodies.

Its not uncommon for the 2nd line troops again for a better word, to behave with barbarity after the fighting man has finished his job so to speak, anyways just an idea

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:17 am

I have two accounts of boys being hung from meathooks, and these could be two different accounts of the same thing.

One from Drummer Sweeney:
"One little chap named M'Every (sic, most likely MacEwan) they hung up by the chin to a hook"

Another from Trooper Sam Jones of Newcastle Mounted Rifles:
"Two lads, presumably little drummer boys of the 24th Regiment, had been hung up by butcher hooks which had been jabbed under the chins, then disembowelled;"

Dawn

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:17 am

Hello

Michael, the scaffold or 'drying rack' that Horace SD mentions also popped into my mind as well, could the stories have stemmed from there? I still am of the mind that something untoward happened to the boys at Isandlwana, this primarily due to Makin's account. Granted, he does not actually see bodies hanging from hooks but Sam Jones states that he did.

This quote is from a letter printed in the Oldham Weekly Chronicle on April 29th, 1879 by Drummer W. Sweeney of the 2/24th. He says:

�Two drummers, Anderson and Holmes, and five little boys of the band about fourteen years of age. They butchered most awfully indeed. One little chap named M�Every, they hung up by the chin to a hook�

Another key witness methinks. Returning with Chelmsford's force. He would have aslo known the Drummers well. I dare say the Boys too if they had taken up an instrument.

Glenn

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:25 am

Glenn
I think we were posting at the same time. Great minds think alike. (Or fools never differ?? Smile

)

Dawn