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Officers of the 1st/24th Regt. possibly taken on Malta 1867
John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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I know it is tattered and torn but I thought I'd share with the forum a recent acquisition. Which I believe depicts officers of the 1st/24th taken on Malta circa 1867.



I believe the Major standing in rear row on the left to be Richard Thomas Glyn. Standing on the right appears to be William Brander.

I would welcome anyone else's views as to who else may be in the photograph.

Regards,

John Y.
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GlennWade


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Swansea
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Hi John,

It's been hell of a while since I've posted on here but this looks to be a fascinating topic. I'm going to be bold and question whether the chap you've identified as Glyn may possibly be Francis Freeman White? (He does look to have the build of Glyn but he has the frown I've seen in images of the Paymaster)

I could very well be wrong, but thought I'd have a crack. Hope you are well. Cracking photograph.

Cheers,

Glenn

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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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John

Great photo, absolutely terrific. Is there anything about the photo apart from the 24th badge & the possible likeness of Glyn & Brander? Any provenance or other clues?

Very tempting to compare the people here with the known portraits of 24th officers (but you'll have more of these than us). Depends when all the well known portraits were taken - mostly early/mid/late 1870s I suppose. A good method would be to compare the faces in the Secunderabad cricket team photo - what's the date of that one - early 1870s? Wrong Bn? Still, several transferred in the '60s & '70s didn't they?

Definitely looks like an 1860s photo here, going by hair, beards & togs. The more I look, the more familiar they seem! I appreciate quite a few 1879 chaps can be ignored because of their youth or known absence from Malta (def Malta though?) but how about:


Pulleine - sitting middle row, far right. Or middle row, 2nd left?
Wm Degacher - sitting, middle row 3rd left? Allowing for changes in style!
Wardell had a very distinctive appearance - but was he in Malta around then, or only from c1870+?
Porteous - centre front? White 3rd from left, back row? Pullen front right? All allowing for hair cuts!!!

Tried Ron Sheeley? I expect you have. Wonder if it is a mixture of officers & civvies? Do you have any other ideas on identity, or are you hoping a new pair of eyes might help?

Great picture - thanks for putting it up here.

Peter
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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Hi John

Well, we know who went out with 1/24th aboard SS Pennsylvania which arrived at Malta on 30th September 1866……..

Col Wodehouse
Majors Glyn* & Travers
Captains H J Hitchcock (Degacher)*, Crawfurd, Foot, Dunbar*, C F Lloyd & Plasket
Lieutenants Tongue*, J C Thomas, Brander*, Harrisson*, W Hitchcock (Degacher)*, Farquhar, Hibbert, G A Lee & E Lee
Ensigns Upcher*, Carrington*, Moffat*, Corcor, Melvill*, Bennett*, Syms, Porteous* & Allen
Paymaster White*
Lt & Adjutant Caldwell*
Quartermaster Charters
Surgeons Coates & Duffy

And we know who subsequently left Malta for Gibraltar aboard transport Jumna on 29th February 1872…..

Lt-Colonel Glyn*
Major H J Hitchcock (Degacher)*
Captains Dunbar*, Harrisson*, Farquhar & Mostyn*
Lieutenants Wardell*, Airey, Carrington*, Melvill*, Syms, Boothby, Ealand, Browne* & Curteis
Sub-Lieutenant Haughton
Paymaster White*
Quartermaster Charters
Lt & Adjutant Corcor
Surgeons Coates & Hickson

* Served in South Africa

More work and thought required difficult without uniforms and medal ribbons……………may not be all 1/24th.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Glen,

Thanks for trying, however, Francis White only had the one medal, that for the Indian Mutiny - here's a photograph of him clearly only shown one medal ribbon on his uniform:


Hon. Major F. F. White

Whereas Glyn had the Crimea & Mutiny medals.

Peter,

The only thing that links it to Malta is that I bought it in a batch of photographs taken on the island, the others were all from the early 1870's, apart from this one.

Malta was the only overseas station that I could place the 1st/24th prior to Glyn's promotion to Lt.-Colonel on 13th February 1867.

Pulleine was with 2nd/24th until 1871, so we can discount him. Likewise George Wardell who joined the 1st Battalion in 1870.

After studying other unit photographs. Front row on the left, with his hand to his face, I believe is Henry Harrisson.

I would welcome any other suggestions though!

Regards,

John Y.
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Hello Martin,

Just caught sight of your posting after I posted my last.

I'll have trawl through my photographs on Monday, as I know that I have a number of the officers that you mention who went out in 1866. I wonder if that is Dunbar beneath that impressive beard?

Can you recall if there are any group photographs in the archives from that period?

Regards,

John Y.
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Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 436
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John
David Jackson has this photo. I recall that somehow he'd identified White in it.
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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John,

There are some groups from Malta and carte-de-visite in the regimental archives so we may be able suggest some possibilities for you.

Currently immersed in reseaching Welsh Regt Officers - like

Capt Raleigh Napier Kelsey who was leader of a pioneering trip by car from the Cape to Cairo, but sadly had a tussle with a leopard in Rhodesia and lost in November 1914.

Captain Norman Mitchell Biggs - a Welsh International Rubgy player - who was killed by poisioned arrow in the depths of Nigeria while serving there as a policeman in 1908. That doesn't happen in London fortunately.

Lt Louis 'Monty' Miller - who was Dame Agatha Christie's elder brother.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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That certainly looks to me like Francis White seated on the far right (middle row). I'm going with Peter on Francis Porteus-- the dramatically receding hairline cliches it for me. And William Dunbar with the impressive beard seems right. He lost the beard and began to part his hair in the middle it seems, but the eyes are the same.

Isn't the sash a clue for the gentleman standing in uniform? Do I recall there's something about left or right shoulder?
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Where would Cavaye have been at this time? I ask because the gentlemen in the double breasted tunic with the sash looks passably like him-- again, with the eyes (and brows) although the shoulders of the man in the photo seem to slope a bit more and the face seems somewhat fuller.
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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Cavaye was at Sandhurst in 1871 and joined 1/24th in Gibraltar in March 1872.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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So that either isn't Cavaye or the photograph is post March 1872? I'm going to have to go with the former-- it simply isn't Cavaye. Even for the 1860's the double breasted tunic is obsolete and out of fashion, so I can't imagine a "Noob" just out of Sandhurst would be wearing one. Still, you must admit that the individual in the photo is a man of some consequence since he's the only one dressed to the nines. In my defense, I thought that he looked to old to be Cavaye anyway.
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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This is not easy - as I said even more difficult as they are in civilian clothes - there could be visitors from other units - you really named contemporary photographs also taken in Malta to make an accurate comparison - you cannot really base recognition on those images (or sketches) appearing 10-15 years later. As John points out Glyn must have been there, and I think also Melvill. This will take some time to resolve if ever.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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The Scorer


Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Newport
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I have absolutely no idea who's on the photograph, so I'll defer to anyone who does.

However, it strikes me that none of them are looking very happy - in fact, some are looking downright sad / unhappy. Is there anything in the records which might indicate when the photo was taken - i.e. at or for a particular event?

I'm thinking that if the reason for the photo (however approximate) could be fixed, would there be a better chance of identifying who is on it? It's just a thought ... over to you!

Smile
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Alan
Site Admin

Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1418
Location: Wales
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These engravings of officers KIA at Isandhlwana may help.


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Officers of the 1st/24th Regt. possibly taken on Malta 1867
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