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Julian's Book - Anyone Got A Topic To Start About It ?
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Maybe too early to ask, as I've not got my copy yet.

However, do the contents open up new areas for discussion ?

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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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Coll,

I sense you have a very active mind....if you have a local public library ticket the chances are that you also have access to many on-line services at your home without visiting the library..........for instance. A quick search of the Times Archive Services gives the following:

The Times newspaper dated 8th November 1879.

The Maritzberg Correspondence of the Standard and Mail, writing under the date October 12 says:

The funeral of the late Anthony Durnford RE was solemnised today at the cemetery at Fort Napier with full military honours. The ceremony was of the most imposing character, and a large number of the residents of this city joined in the procession. Major General Clifford and all the chief officers were present, General Billsett, Colonel Mitchell (Colonial Secretary), Mr Symons (Auditor), Bishop Colenso, and others. At 4 pm the troops mustered at Fort Napier. They consisted of the Engineers, companies of 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, 99th Regiment, 57th Regiment, and of the 60th Rifles forming the procession, and of the Natal Carbineers, the Mounted Rifles, and the Maritzburg Rifles, who stood to arms, together with the natives (sic) of Edendale Horse, who have been under Colonel Durnford's command, and who turned out, being especially desirous to be present on this occasion. The Army Service Corps were also present, and altogether there must have been about 800 or 1,000 military and volunteers present. The coffin was placed on a gun carriage wrapped in a Union Jack and having upon it a large number of wreaths. The procession having been formed marched to the strains of the 'Dead March' in Saul along the road leading to the military chapel. There a halt was made, and the coffin taken in. The Burial Service was read over it by the Rev Ritchie, chaplain to the forces. The procession then reformed, and marched to the military cemetery, about half-a-mile further on, where the coffin was committed to its last resting place. The men of the regiments named above were placed in three sides of a square around it, and, under command of Capt Harvey (24th Regiment), fired three volleys over the grave. The Rev Richie gave a short but touching address. He said the late Colonel Durnford had been a true friend and an upright man and a brave soldier. He felt that those who now wept his loss could still reverently hope that they would, when the hour came for them to pass from time to eternity, which always seemed so far but yet so near, be called, as he was called, by the Great Captain. All present behaved with reverence and attention throughout the whole ceremony and large numbers were evidently deeply affected.

And there is many more for you to find- it is not rocket science ................you do not have wait for someone else to do the research for you.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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Coll,

I should have said that according to this report the funeral took place in PMB on 11th October 1879 - Colonel Durnford was killed on 22nd January.

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Martin Everett
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Martin

Thanks for posting the details.

Julian's book has just arrived.

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Julian

Read your book. Enjoyed it.

Will need to read it over a couple more times to absorb the info.

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Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
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Wow, Coll, that was quick! I wish I could have written it as fast as you read it!
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Julian

When something is of great interest to myself, I do like to read it right through without many breaks.

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Julian

It certainly appears to be the case that Anthony did do his duty, following his orders as given to him.

Additionally, Edward -for all he was family who would immediately jump to his defence and try to save Anthony's reputation, which was dragged through the mud right up to recent times - was absolutely right to request further investigation.

It seems the Durnford brothers' story is finally being acknowledged and believed by many, with the appearance of more well-researched info like your book and Quantrill and Lock's TMFH.

I only have ever considered myself a fly in the ointment/spanner in the works, in order to provoke 'Durnford' debates amongst the more educated members.

Now, I feel no more need to discuss/debate/aggressively argue on behalf of Anthony (and Edward), as there were indeed a few good men who accomplished the difficult task of assembling the primary sources, leading to a positive and successful result.

Many will still disagree, but it'll take a long time for anyone to step up to the mark and take on all these points one-by-one, in an attempt to discredit them.

Congratulations on the book

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Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 436
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Well, I don't agree with everything that L&Q wrote and I can't apologize for everything that Durnford did, because he certainly did make mistakes, along with Pulleine and Chelmsford, but it does seem to me that Durnford's reputation has suffered out of all context with respect to the responsibility for Isandhlwana.
I intend to follow up the question of Durnford's orders in some detail in a later volume as there are still some good points to make and some things to reveal which might make people sit up and take note.
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Julian

I look forward to your follow-up on Durnford's orders, as anything that makes people 'sit up and take notice' of him in a positive way, can only be good.

As for TMFH, it is convincing enough, until such time as someone gives a valid argument against - which may never happen.

I'm always hoping even more things come to light, showing him as he was, rather than being depicted as the villain, whilst Edward was just seen as a nuisance to the authorities in the aftermath.

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PS. Truthfully, I wish I had the abilities of the likes of Jim Garrison, Bob Woodward or Carl Bernstein, to go after Chelmsford et al, and put them in the dock in a civilian court for a public trial, instead of behind-closed-doors in a military trial, the latter saving them any discomfort whilst giving evidence on their part before, during and after Isandlwana.

What was the quote by Garrison ? (In the film anyway) -

'Let justice be done, though the Heavens may fall !'

However, I'm more like Columbo - though he is always underestimated by those he's investigating. Wink
Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Hang on a minute, did you really mean to write all that? Or are you, like me, finding it hard to concentrate during the daytime while feeling shattered after all these 4 a.m. reveilles which are required to follow the current excitement in Ahmedebad? You mention (yet another!) film but don't say which one. You want Chelmsford hauled in front of a civilian court for a public trial. For the crime of ... what?

Back in real life, Chelmsford - who has been dead for over a century and who had, before 1879, clearly been viewed favourably in comparison with many of his (all pre-Cardwell) peers & whose track record backed up this view - was given the very fullest opportunity by his superiors to explain his actions & decisions leading to the worst defeat of the AZW & one of the worst of the reign. His best efforts were duly considered insufficient to avoid culpability and as a result he was sacked without delay (commensurate with the distance and time involved). His Commander-in-Chief & colleagues at the WO, whatever one thinks of the Duke's own career, were surely far better qualified to conclude that Chelmsford had erred, than 12 good men & true from the general public whose military acumen & (lack of) knowledge of the situation thousands of miles away might easily have led to the opposite verdict. Don't forget Chelmsford's critics hammered him in the heavyweight press & both houses of Parliament (when he wasn't there to defend himself) & he certainly did experience the public discomfort of both this and the need publicly to stand up in Parliament later and defend his actions & reputation. All that, as well as being kept from the field for the rest of his career & even being denied his request for a more affordable post in India. He wasn't a criminal, Coll.

Nothing at all wrong with Hollywood or Pinewood for a bit of escapism now & again, but we're all on dodgy ground if we start to confuse their output with history. (And don't forget your (solemn?) promise to "move on" Wink

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Peter

You should know not to pay any heed to my PSs, as they are just my own personal afterthought, not like what my main serious post is. Confused

With only a few posts being added, I just added my own comment to Julian, now that I've re-read his book, is all.

Surely, any personal opinions is to do with one's own point of view - if I see Chelmsford, Crealock, etc., not as criminals, but involved in what I consider to be a cover-up which is a crime in itself, then should say so.

As for mentioning any films, it is the only way to get people to know where I seen/heard a piece of dialogue or situation, much like a primary source, rather than made up - the film being referred to was JFK.

Woodward and Bernstein as you probably know, were reporters who uncovered Watergate, which went all the way to the top, depicted in the film All The President's Men.

I'm happy to sit back and let others start new topics, post replies, in order for the forum not to become too quiet again.

I'll venture back to my other hobbies again.

Yes. A promise is a promise, but I am moving on, just responding to Julian's detailed work, which isn't being discussed yet.

I'll await a/if any interesting topic to begin on his book.

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Martin - I meant to say that I think your earlier post may have been in the wrong topic, instead of the other topic started by myself.
Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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You've been pleading for more active discussions for some time now and in the past have also frequently mentioned trials, court martials & military tribunals - real, imagined or desired - about Isandlwana. Entirely ignorant of the apparent requirement to treat your postscripts differently than your "main serious points", I submitted a post in response. Although I agree with you that your PS was certainly a little woolly, it did pick up on the topic (courts & trials) which you had often dwelt upon in the past, and I thought the "main serious post" looked even woollier so passed on that. With helpful intentions I merely wondered if a few facts might clarify things for you, lest you begin to descend once more into that morass of mawkish drama about Durnford.

But never mind - you know what they say about not letting the facts get in the way of a good story.

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Peter

I do fret about posting as it usually goes the wrong way intended, as in days of old, like this topic not really connecting with the original topic heading about Julian's book Rolling Eyes

I'm finding it far too difficult to start a topic on the forum.

So, not wishing to pursue it any more, I'm off - that is, until next year, hopefully then to read topics about Julian's book, the new version of Zulu Dawn on dvd, the Zulu script and the elusive Durnford biography !

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Wink

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Alan
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1418
Location: Wales
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Same to you Coll.

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