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Broadening The Category?
Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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In the interests of presenting other treatments of A-ZW games here's a few references to some of what's out there. A little follow up could help with the new mod perhaps. (Most of these are board games, none of which I've played or even seen.)

http://grognard.com/titlez.html -contains five Zulu War games including some rules.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/7190 -a Rorke's Drift game.

http://videogames.aol.com/game_main?gameID=4640 -The late Twyilyt PC game currently in limbo, awaiting investment. (With screen-shots to die for!)

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?name=Zulu+War -an old PC game.

http://strategicsimulations.net/catalog/default.php?cPath=94 -Four Australian offerings.

http://strangecargogames.com/index.php?cPath=301_262_279 -Paintable miniatures for traditional miniature gaming.

http://www.angelfire.com/games3/jacksongamer/briton_3.htm -Rules and dice for a boardgame

http://members.tripod.com/kriegsmann/impi.html -The venerable "Guards Club" with interesting artwork and a single link... to RDVC!

Last But Not Least : http://www.drinkinggamerules.com/view_game.php?I'd=621 -A drinking game wherein one gathers a crate of beer, a bunch of shot glasses and a DVD of Zulu and/or Zulu Dawn and does a shot every time a Zulu appears on screen. (I kid you not, please don't try this at home unless you're a trained professional!) (And definitely not while caressing your loaded M-H!)

Best

Michael
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ZTW_julian


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 11
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If you are interested in AZW board games then you should like our mod because many of the new ideas we are trying to incorporate are based on old Zulu board games, especially on the campaign, which if you have played Rome Total War you will know is a bit like moving figures on a table top game.

The Twilyt game "Zulu War" is an interesting one. I saw it a while ago and I think its a shame that there is such little investment in a game like this. The screenshots look nice but I think there are unfortunately some catches. The models look very high-poly, which means very detailed with the model, rarther than the texture. That along with the land that seems to end aprubtly and the solid picture for a sky leads me to believe these are actually rendered in a 3D modelling program rarther than a game engine. I could be wrong though.

I hope a proffesional team do at some point create a Zulu game, I'm sure we'd all love to play it. For the mean time though... back to that drinking game Wink

Regards,

ZTW_Julian
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got it
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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I actually got the Zulu War ISI game from The Underdogs site and its another one of my inspirations for this mod. As I read more of the history of the period it really wasn't easy for the British or Boers particularly as the African tribes gained access to more firearms after the Napoleonic Wars. Some chiefs like Moshoeshoe were actually victorious in many of the skirmishes they fought so the stereotypical image of the Euros slaughtering the 'fuzzies' died out really quickly and I realized we would have a really good and well balanced mod - the African factions can choose a number of development paths, focusing on either close-in melee like the Zulus, long range skirmishing like the Xhosa and cultivating ties to other colonial powers in the hope that they will be given foreign aid of some sort (but that's a long shot). In general they will have better hand-to-hand skills than the Euros. The Euros will have the gun at the start to even things out and their drilled regulars will outfight the 'natives' - but there are never enough regulars to go around. Essentially the balance rests with the Euros trying to keep the Africans from reaching them to melee while the Africans try to acquire better ranged weapons than thrown spears while continuing to build melee strength.

Of course this shouldn't just be for our mod but for gaming in general... I'll throw in a suggestion for another game. Instead of this RTS types like what we're doing, what I'd like to see is a game reminiscent of Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six series (i.e.. a 'serious' First Person Shooter) which lets you take the role of Bromhead or Durnford. Instead of earpiece radios your command character has a 'command radius' which can be modified by the presence of a bugler, calling a runner or having your sergeants within earshot. You can give orders to the entire company but give specific orders to squads and individuals (form squad, call a specific character - call the bugler, a runner, a sergeant, or one of the named characters you come across like Chard, Adendorff, Bourne, etc., all around defense, cover this area, sharpshooter position, ignore company orders,etc.) and squads themselves are given ROE (rules of engagement) like in Rainbow Six which vary speed and caution (Cautious, Normal, Aggressive) and the mode of action (Aid - give first aid or bandage or supply ammunition, Escort - essentially defend this character, Reconnoitre, Defensive, Offensive, etc.). And of course since it's a first person shooter, you're right in the middle of the action. It's the logical next step actually and in the case of Rorke's Drift it fits quite well. I'm surprised no gaming company has taken it up yet.

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Tom "Harlechman"
Zulu Total War Team,
a Rome TW: BI mod.
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ZTW_julian


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 11
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A first person shooter is certainly an interesting idea and would have much better multiplayer battles in my opinion. Unfortunately we can't program our own games and so the closest we could get would be to actually modify Rainbow Six or a similar game, though this would not give us quite the scope we would need to pull it off succesfully.

It would be interesting to apply the same concept to a game like Battlefield, where each individual does what they want but there is a commander on ground who gives specific orders to his/her team. The other people, who are actually players (or sometimes computer bots) may do as instructed but often realisticly they can't and so do their own thing. Of course there are too many problems such as vehicles and buildings which stop us applying the idea directly but its an interesting thought.

I think the games industry hasn't really taken this up yet because they are always looking for the new ideas that push user/computer interaction to the maximum. Also there isn't much market for historic realism and if a first person, AZW period game were to come out it probably would be not whoelly accurate. Though I suppose we could always mod it to make it better Very Happy
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and then there's the commercial aspect
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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case in point - Gods And Generals the game... Its so sad because I can imagine the interface, picturing it in my mind already (its very similar to Rainbow Six with a FPS shooter screen that you can shift to an overhead map screen at the push of a button where you can take command and issue orders. Anyways, yeah, actually I did a Zulu modification for Rogue Spear: Urban Operations but I could never do maps (my 3D Studio Max skills weren't - and aren't - up to scratch. The best I could do was weapons) So, like with Zulu Total War I just did weapons and costumes (I was able to change the figures however using Milkshape).

Using Battlefield might be good too but then your best bet would be to have some sort of online game. Bots can be very very dumb. Another one I was thinking of for Rorke's Drift was Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon which is more of an action game. It shouldn't be too hard to change the figures of modern soldiers into Zulu War era troops, replacing the Kevlar helmet with a pith helmet and giving them Martini Henrys. Anyways, I hope some indie developer can take it up.

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Lost already
Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Now I'm lost. All this game-speak. I think I'll give my head a rest.

Mind you, its fascinating stuff even if I can't understand half of it. Laughing
(It's not because I'm a woman, is it?! Wink )

Love the screen shots! That I can understand.

Dawn
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game speak
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Whoops sorry Dawn,

Mods - modifications. Changing the designed game into something different. Like instead of WW2 US soldiers you have AZW Brits!

Modders - modifiers. Weird no-life nerds who modify games (KIDDING!!!) The brilliant visionaries who can see beyond the structure of a pre-existing piece of gaming software and dream of limitless possibilities.

Bots - as in roBOTS. Basically computer controlled characters. Usually the enemy in shooting games.

FPS - First Person Shooter. Seen from the point of view of the soldier it is quite an engaging and exciting type of game. However it usually is one of the dumbest.

RTS - Real Time Strategy. Games as varied as Red Alert, Cossacks, Age of Empires to the Total War series are classified as this. Usually involves building up structures that produce resources which can be used to buy military units to (dare I say it) RULE THE WORLD.

3D Studio Max (3DSM) and Milkshape are 3D design programs that are used to modify the 3D objects and characters in these games. Julian (Sundjata) uses 3D Studio Max 6. I only got as far as 3DSM 3 for that Zulu War mod for Rogue Spear.

Game Engine or Engine - the basic game or characteristics within the game or the programmed rules/systems which drive the game. We speak of the Unreal game engine, the Total War game engine, the Half-Life game engine - meaning modders build their mods around the structure of the original game.

Rainbow Six, Rogue Spear, Urban Ops, Ghost Recon are a popular series of FPS based on Tom Clancy's anti-terrorism technothrillers. Tbey are also in my opinion one of the best FPS games out there as they strive to attain a higher level of realism (no health meters or health packs there - you get shot in the head, you die). They also have a significant strategic planning phase (which I know turns others off to it - they'd rather shut off their brain and shoot). The best engine for making a Zulu War shooting game.

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Tom "Harlechman"
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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There, now I understand.

Now why did I have to be the one to ask the dumb questions so that we can all learn something new today? Or do you fellas know all this already?

Anyone?

It's gone awfully quiet!

Dawn
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Tom and Julian

I know it appears that I am in a combination of awe and confusion with computer operation and gaming, but this is absolutely fascinating.

I'd like to hear more ideas dealing with First Person Shooter game possibilities for the AZW and modifications to enable a Multi-Player facility in a 3D battlefield environment.

I'll try to add a few suggestions, but not knowing computer capabilities, etc., they may seem ridiculous.

I've only really been using a computer for about a year and a half, the last one I used was an Acorn Electron (remember that model ?), where my favourite, well, only game I had, was Elite.

The games I have played so far are a real-time battlefield simulation of Waterloo, where you control units in different scenarios that happened during the actual engagement. I'm in the process of playing Max Payne, a Second Person (?) game where you control a character. Running around streets and inside buildings, fighting hoodlums, picking up weapons and ammunition, also with a slow motion facility. Pretty good.

However, I have played a First Person Shooter 'Medal of Honour Allied Assault' and it was brilliant ! I think this type of game is incredible, the graphics, the action, the weapons - looking through the scope of a sniper rifle to pick off enemy targets was superb. I'm not sure how many First Person Shooters are available, but the 2 other games I have (Shellshock, Call Of Duty) I think are this type of game.

I like all types of scenarios - WW2, Vietnam, Modern Conflict, Special Forces, Police, etc. etc.

Do you know if there are any First Person Shooters based on the Old West ? I'm sure I heard of one called 'Gun', but am not sure it is of this sort of game.

I can imagine a Multi-Player First Person Shooter game for Rorke's Drift, fighting from the barricades or even inside the Hospital, using some of the modifications you both have described above.

Or there eventually being a Multi-Player First Person Shooter game, fighting at the battle of Isandlwana, against a large AI Zulu army.

Coll
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Coll wrote:

I'll try to add a few suggestions, but not knowing computer capabilities, etc., they may seem ridiculous.


Wasn't that what they said about a certain chap named Leonardo Da Vinci - or was it Copernicus...

Fire away (pardon the pun!!)... where would this world be without out of the box thinking!

BTW is the Waterloo game you're mentioning, Waterloo: Napoleon's Last Battles?

The thing also with games is there are so many of them and so little time to talk about them that you'd abbreviate where possible, the first letters are usually a good rule of thumb: For example Rome Total War: the Barbarian Invasion becomes RTW BI. Call of Duty becomes CoD, Medal of Honour: Allied Assault becomes MoHAA, and so on...

The two best ones for conversion might be Call of Duty (not played it, I actually don't play FPS games as I have been diagnosed with vertigo) or Tom Clancy's games particularly Ghost Recon (the only reason I can play it is it has that planning function which allows me to watch it from a 3d person point of view - from behind or to one side - and let the computer execute my plans). An old west game might be a good vehicle as well. But the problem with many of these games is their code might be too difficult to pick apart or their story line might be set. The best you can do in those cases would be to change their costumes but that's it.

Coll wrote:

Or there eventually being a Multi-Player First Person Shooter game, fighting at the battle of Isandlwana, against a large AI Zulu army.


Or one playing a Zulu sniper too Wink

Don't worry Dawn, I really should have explained a lot of this earlier. This is actually one thing I've run into before - I was working on a modification for a 17th century modification (another favorite period of mine is the Jacobite Rising in Scotland as Julian knows!) and I was on a boardgaming and history forum and I rubbed some people the wrong way. It really wasn't pretty. Some people were supportive but others really... it was nasty. That's another reason I've held out coming HERE so long. I didn't know how everyone here would react to what might seem like a bunch of computer geeks turning their beloved AZW period into gaming fodder. (while we want it to be 'fun' and 'well balanced' of course, we want it to be firmly grounded in history, rest assured.)

No worries there, I'm glad you did ask.

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Tom "Harlechman"
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a Rome TW: BI mod.
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Coll
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Tom

Yes. It is indeed Napoleon's Last Battle. A think it's termed a 2D simulation.

Playing various types of games, lets me get used to the keyboard and mouse operation during them, as well as understanding the instructions supplied with them, in booklets and on-screen. This way I can develop 'skills' to assist me in future games which may be more demanding, regarding the mentioned abilities (keyboard, mouse) to help prevent faltering too often during a game's progress.

The Call of Duty game that I have, I can't seem to play on my computer, but it is termed Game of the Year, and covers D-Day, the Russian Charge at Stalingrad and the Battle for Berlin. Not sure of the contents, as in graphics and playability.

On the subject of gamers' characters 'talking' to each other during a First Person Shooter scenarios, as well as 'set' instructions, which are activated by some programme facility. Could there not eventually be a 'Dialogue Caption Box' introduced onto the screen, which allows you to sort of 'e-mail' (for want of a better word) conversation between gamers' characters, that only the gamers speaking to each other can see, or better still, after you've typed in the dialogue (orders, general discussion, etc.) it 'arrives' at that specific gamer's computer as a computer-generated voice, as realistically as talking to someone, rather than the strange mechanised voices usually associated with computers ?

That way the gamers can have their characters discussing everything from orders and suggested strategy, to how they think the battle is going, and what they consider might happen next, etc.

I'm not sure if this is worded clearly.

Coll


Last edited by Coll on Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
communication
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Ah, good old Waterloo. They have a sequel, Austerlitz, out and I hear the modding community just released a modification for the battle of Fontenoy 1745. They have a lot of great campaigns available for that game if you look hard enough.

Yeah dialogue is basic to a multiplayer FPS. Even at its most basic, Counterstrike, you can communicate, usually by hitting RETURN key or some key and then you can type in a message. Facing and firing is usually done with the mouse and movement and other functions by the keyboard. For a AZW FPS though I think though there should be more available orders to facilitate company command and because when you're typing on the keyboard you're vulnerable (though in many computers nowadays there's the option to hook up a mic and headphones so communication is vocal rather than typed).

I took a look at the Call of Duty mods site and it looks very good - and very moddable. Perhaps in the future if some FPS modder with an interest in the AZW happens by, who knows Very Happy ?

That would be a treat though - imagine even a simple game like Counterstrike modified to the AZW period and you have a bunch of dedicated AZW enthusiasts taking the roles of characters from the battle. Man that would be a great game!

You sure it's just plain Call of Duty? Not United Offensive or CoD2? Just want to be sure.

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Tom "Harlechman"
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Coll
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Tom

As you can tell, I'm not sure of the Multi-Player facilities and operation, but the idea of the characters being able to communicate to each other with orders, etc., sounds excellent, making the gamer feel fully-involved in the situation.

Waterloo was a good start for me to be familiar with wargaming on the computer, it is good to see smoke from the rifles when the companies are volley-firing, as well as the buildings catching fire.

The Call of Duty that I have, must be the first issue, as it does say Game of the Year 2003. The 2 you mention must have been developed later.

Discussing the possibilties of a FPS for the AZW really has caught my attention, the appeal of such a game would be fantastic.

I'm always interested to hear about what can and might be considered for games now and in the near future. Delighted to have a chance to talk about AZW-related games.

Coll
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You know I've been reading this thread about AZW gaming and it's really interesting. Don't know if this is part of the gaming plan, but does it follow that a scenario or scnearios would appear where Pulleine and Durnford have a chance to win and perhaps beat the Zulu impis! In one of the Waterloo games I saw, if I'm not mistaken ,if you, the French, could find way of getting to Wellington's positions BEFORE Blucher made his grand entrance maybe you could pull the battle off. Now if you get into a similar thematic scenario as at Isandhlwana I'm sure there'd be plenty of debate to get into that one!
problems...
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Hi Rich and Coll,

Well one problem is nowadays producers of games are pretty limited in their vision - it's EITHER an FPS or an RTS or a Strategy Board game - though there are those which try to break the genre bounderies. One which comes to mind is Sid Meier's Pirates which has roleplaying, naval combat, fencing, dancing simulation, etc. depending on the situation you get into. Rogue Spear is an FPS but it's got a very strong strategic element. I rather despise mindless shooting games.

I think Rorke's Drift would be manageable - a hundred or so Brits of which certain key characters could be controlled by human player(s) vs a thousand or so (at a time) Zulu Bots (with perhaps the role of Zulu snipers playable). However for Durnford and Pulleine (or Chelmsford and Glyn) facing the Zulu impi of nTshingwayo it may be way too much for the current power of computers to depict as an FPS (but not an RTS, like oh hmmm, Rome Total War...) However if you have a single SPECIFIC company or incident - like Durnford's last stand, or Younghusband's company, or Melvill and Coghill's ride - then that would be achievable I think.

Waterloo is a lovely game, one of my favorites.

Hope remains though... CoD basic it is then... it looks easy enough to mod (if the figures can be changed with the Milkshape 3D modelling program then that's good luck!), has a lot of outdoor possibilities, lots of add on maps, skins, weapons and prefabs (prefabricated objects that can be set in place or sometimes carried around - like perhaps mealie bags for example...) I will look into it more closely.

My dream would be to keep it manageable at company level, have historically accurate orders (and then some to fill the gaps), soldiers which can gain/lose experience or health and real-life damage (no health bars PLEASE!)

Oh - another one that's worth looking at - there's this game Mount and Blade, which handles hand to hand combat, as well as mounted combat ON HORSES very very well I hear.

Best wishes,

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Tom "Harlechman"
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Broadening The Category?
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