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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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Johnny

Don't worry about it. The thread for a remake of either movie comes up from time to time and its easy to get muddled between the two.

It sounds like you are in agreement with most of the other members of this forum anyway.

I've made some plunders in the past too, including getting confused between the two Godwin-Austen brothers. (We won't go there!! Laughing )

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Okay.... I admit I know nothing about screenwriting.

Many of the points raised in the previous postings make a lot of sense. (apart from mine maybe)

Dawn

The example you gave involving Durnford appealed to me greatly.

Regarding the film 'A Bridge Too Far', I thought Sean Connery and Anthony Hopkins were brilliant as the officers, and I think that around the time this film was made, they would have been great as Durnford and Pulleine.

However, would Sean Connery have been more acceptable as Durnford, rather than Burt Lancaster ?

Although Sean Connery, even portraying a Russian submarine commander in 'The Hunt for Red October', never tried to alter his scottish accent in most of his films, many of the movies he made were excellent.

When you think of him in films like 'The Man Who Would Be King' (with Michael Caine) could he have played the role of Durnford without too much criticism of his performance ?

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Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
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Coll wrote:
Okay.... I admit I know nothing about screenwriting.

Many of the points raised in the previous postings make a lot of sense. (apart from mine maybe)

Dawn

The example you gave involving Durnford appealed to me greatly.

Regarding the film 'A Bridge Too Far', I thought Sean Connery and Anthony Hopkins were brilliant as the officers, and I think that around the time this film was made, they would have been great as Durnford and Pulleine.

However, would Sean Connery have been more acceptable as Durnford, rather than Burt Lancaster ?

Although Sean Connery, even portraying a Russian submarine commander in 'The Hunt for Red October', never tried to alter his scottish accent in most of his films, many of the movies he made were excellent.

When you think of him in films like 'The Man Who Would Be King' (with Michael Caine) could he have played the role of Durnford without too much criticism of his performance ?

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Honestly though, as much as I enjoy Connery.
The Man who would be King is a standout film for him, every other movie Including his role in A Bridge Too Far ) hes just Sean Connery. Which isn't a problem, but I think there are more capable actors especially during the time these films were coming out to play these officers. I forgot the name of the officer, but I could see connery playing the officer who wouldnt dine with Chelmsford saying "It wouldnt be proper for me to eat, while my mens bellys are stuck to their backbones" ... forgive me for not knowing the officers name.

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Dawn


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It was Hamilton-Browne.

He was also peeved because at the time he had been called to see Chelmsford, he had been involved in a little skirmish with the enemy.

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Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
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my biggest problem with Zulu Dawn are the obvious mistakes done out of lack of care (or maybe perhaps budget?). The terrible Polyester tunics, why in the hell did they issue Martini Henry Carbines for the battle scenes, then there are the Wooden Martini rifles that in some shots are not only in the forground but you can see that some are mere sticks with nails sticking out of the top. The Pith Helmets look in some scenes like they are made of cheap plastic. So although there are allot of fine qualties about the movie, it lacks in several deptartments. The DVD is very shoddy too, its a very cheap release and the picture isn't even really much better then a VHS version.

I like it fine, but Zulu is a far far better film.

Funny somone should mention A Bridge Too Far, those two films hold allot in common as to the style of film that they are, although ABTF is a much much better film. Its my Third favorite movie of all time.

My top three are

Zulu
Battle of Britain
A Bridge too far

hehe Cool

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Johnny

Col. Durnford was nearly 49 years old when he was killed at Isandlwana, and if I'm right Burt Lancaster was around 60 when he portrayed him in 'Zulu Dawn'.

As I like Sean Connery as an actor, but also he was about the same age as Durnford when the film was being made, the idea of both him and Anthony Hopkins playing the 2 main roles in 'Zulu Dawn' stuck in my mind.

There was a scene, when they managed to get in contact with each other, after the radios were repaired, when Sean Connery (I think) said to Anthony Hopkins, as they were both in a dire situation, something along the lines of "I'm not sure who needs help most. Whether you need me to come and support you, or I need you to come and support me." (can anyone supply the right dialogue for this scene)

This scene in the film I always remembered, as well as the one where Sean Connery's character, back from the 'front-line', explained to a superior officer, about how many men he initially was in command of before the engagement, then how many he came back with.

There were indeed other actors around who could have portrayed Durnford well, but I guess we all have different ideas on who would be best.

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Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
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The thing is, for a high concept big budget movie (i.e.. not a documentary) ending at Isandhlwana may be too much of a downer. You gotta have some sort of upper - hence the 'heart of the ocean' device or having Pearl Harbor end with the Doolittle Raid (and the 'heart of the ocean' in this case is the womb of Kate Beckinsale) so if it's just Zulu Dawn then you will need some sort of upper at the end.

By the way, nothing wrong really with Zulu - well, there are times when it seems a LITTLE dated but the magnificent acting and characterizations just steal it for me everytime. Speaking of Zulu, not only did I watch it again last week (actually listen to it in the background while working on my textures for Zulu Total War) but I watched Guns of Navarone with Sir Stanley playing a distinctly different role than his Lt.John Chard.

Cheers all,

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Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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This is a very stimulating discussion! Questions of structure and motivation, not just accuracy - marvellous! A few points arising:

(1) I totally agree about the reasons for ZULU DAWN not being satisfactory (not enough detail about the conduct of the battle, too many protagonists and centres of interest, etc). I don't agree that A BRIDGE TOO FAR and THE LONGEST DAY were unsatisfying for similar reasons (ABTF, by the way, did reasonably well commercially and TLD was a huge b.o. hit). TLD especially, because it has the largest-scale event to deal with and deals with it very skilfully, is a model of how to approach a multi-character, multi-thread narrative - even if we don't nowadays remember who Tommy Sands is (or used to be). See it on a big screen rather than on TV and all will become clear! It was Cornelius Ryan, author of the books on which TLG and ABTF were based, who really originated the battle-reconstruction docu-epic, if I may coin that word. I also like the idea of a BAND OF BROTHERS-style mini-series, which might well be the better option than a feature film these days (not least because it will appeal to an older demographic and would therefore avoid some of the commercial imperatives of movies). This brings me on to:

(2) The answer to Dawn's statement that "A remake would have to be a bit more sophisticated than what was done in the 60's and 70's. The audience, for a start, would expect more," is provided by the comments of others elsewhere in this thread that audiences (who are now generally younger than their 60s and 70s counterparts, and a lot less worldly) demand fast action from the outset and aren't interested in the slow build-up of atmosphere and character. That makes most of today's viewers a lot LESS sophisticated, and their expectations would in all probability not be in line with those of contributors to this forum (even the younger ones - no offence intended...). Hence the failure of some recent historical movies (the flop of THE FOUR FEATHERS is another matter - it just wasn't very good, and was VERY slow and turgid!).

(3) Burt Lancaster was 65-66 when ZULU DAWN was made. Stanley Baker, who was originally intended to play Durnford, was 48 when he died in 1976, around the time when the film was going to be made had he lived.

(4) Dawn, knowing your interests, do your friends call you "Zulu" Dawn? Apologies if you've heard that one before (and how could you not have done?)...
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ralph dyer


Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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its a great subject indeed, does zulu dawn get a makeover. most seem to agree it does. well when i watched it for the first time, i enjoyed the suspense and the whole film. it was a new angle to watch and enjoy. though i must admit the film was kinda shoddy. but i think that the music score also helped to down grade the film. lots have been mentioned about a bridge too far, truly a great film filled with top actors. in fact i now live about an hour from arnhem in holland and i know there is a museum there so thats an appointment that i promised myself. it is interesting that the subject of fav movies has come up. and i wondered what are your top 6 movies of all time ? would you be so kind as to list them, mine are as follows----
1/ zulu.
2/ dances with wolves.
3/ the battle of britain.
4/ waterloo.
5/saving private ryan.
6/ braveheart.
regards ralph.

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Sheldon...
I like your idea of the BOB motif. However, something tells me that it just may strke the hearts of Britishers better than for example the "colonialists" since even though most of us know about all things Zulu most I think in the world don't. I'd wonder how the producers would think about that. Now with things like this I'm always checking out the directors who might be involved. That's why I think if Mr. Scott or Mr. Mann got hold of it they perhaps could make the story run pretty well. I'd think if they got a good script and backing they could pull it off. Now with Mr. Mann, there was some talk that he was going to remake "the 300 Spartans", another "back to the wall epic" which I believe was done back in '62 and call it "Gates of Fire, from the book by Steven Pressfield. Unfortunatley, we haven't seen anything yet. What I read was that he hasn't seen a good screenplay and script. At times, I think the politics could be too hot to handle..Persians (East) vs Greeks (West) and all that entails in the current ME climate!
And hey on another note why don't we all do something? heh heh...You know have a kitty and put some dough into it! Shel, you know the way of the film industry..with two shakes of a lamb's tail we can have something moving at the BBC or Granada, eh???? I'll take care of the US rights end for you!

And yes on the Guns of Navarone, what a great film! I did notice a motif with objects that Mr. Baker used in that film compared to "Zulu". In GON, he was pretty lethal with the knife except that in the early scenes when the Germans boarded the boat he failed to kill a German soldier. After his compatriots shoot the soldier, he's looking and eyeing his knife wondering what went on and then putting it in his jacket pocket. He appears to use this same effect when he tries to put bullets into his gun prior to a Zulu attack. And Mr. Baker I'd suggest that if he was still around I'd think perhaps we would've seen a remake! The subject was very dear to him!
Right with you there...
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
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I love A Bridge Too Far - THAT's the one I can quote from memory (as my friends can attest to!) When I was in high school I recorded the entire thing on audiocassette and would listen to it during breaks - so I memorized it down to the timing of explosions.

I remember the scene well Coll:

Frost: "I never expected the pleasure sir. Ah, (explosions) we're holding out (more explosions). We need reinforcements and above all ammunition - over."

Urquhart: "I'm not sure it's a case of us coming for you (looks around at his own situation) or you coming for us!"

Frost: "Well lets just wait for XXX Corps then."

Urquhart: "That would probably be best."

Frost: "Very reassuring talking to you s- (explosion background)"

Urquhart: "I'm sorry Johnny... getting stuck on that bloody bridge four days on your own... have you anything else for me?"

Frost: "No sir, I'll givel you a call when our friends arrive... over."

Urquhart: "All right... good luck... out."

That's another film with infinitely quotable lines and memorable scenes - I think there's a sanitized TV version where they take most of the harsher language out ('Where are those gosh-darned boats?') but the actors who dubbed it either were the originals or they were pretty close, well for most at least. That one also had a lot of extra footage not in the VHS version. What I was wondering was if there was an extra long version that had those scenes and the ones from the movie version (the guy who dies rescuing the canister of red berets comes to mind).

ANYWAYS...

A bit of background on me - I'm a film grad with a distinct taste for historical films ever since I saw Waterloo at about 4 or 5. That got me hooked. Been longing for the mythic 'extended version' ever since (though if War and Peace is any indication... well I have the novelization and I think it would have been tons better. It's just about watchable as it is. Another good example of how to do a historic movie - two main opposing protagonists, lots of color and action, clearly defined action periods like watching a chess match with move and countermove... ) Anyways, I didn't really get into Zulu War movies - I actually MISSED Shaka Zulu on TV (but in my defense I was an impressionable young kid who got nightmares if I watched too many bloody disembowelings hehehe - what scared me off was when my classmate told me about the impalings) and I got turned off by the apparent goryness of Zulu Dawn. But Zulu was great fun. And it still is.

About ABTF and TLD I guess its because I grew up in Asia where those things are just not, well, their history. River Kwai would be more recognizable probably. Then again, most kids really aren't into history - I was the WEIRD ONE (and I guess I still am).

With a modern one you'd probably want to start with the Square of Ulundi so you get right to a battle-action scene at the start. Then have someone, Chard or Cetshwayo flash back to the past. Or if you're doing the 'Band of Brothers' style start with an ambush British troops (including B Company) during the Cape Frontier War.

But one scene that's a must - a wide helicopter shot of Isandhlwana showing the Zulus encircling the camp with the buffalo horns sweeping wide left and right... that's the money shot.

Coll, that would have been a jolly treat with Connery as Durnford and Hopkins as Pulleine.

And before I leave ABTF the second scene mentioned:

Browning: "Well you got a bed for you if you want it..."

Urquhart: "I took ten thousand men into Arnhem... I come out with less than two... I don't feel very much like sleeping."

Browning: "Quite. Well I've just been on the phone to Monty. He's very proud - pleased..."

Urquhart: "Pleased?!!"

Browning: "He thinks Market-Garden was ninety percent successful."

Urquhart: "But what do YOU think?"

Browning: "Well as you know I've always thought that we tried to go a bridge too far..."

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And now... the script of the REMAKE OF ZULU DAWN
Tom516


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As for directors... gotta be careful.

Unfortunately I was unable to get a hold of the official script. What I have appears to be the transcript of a conversation between the directors and actors who will appear in the piece...

THE 'BIG STUDIO' SOMEWHERE IN HOLLYWOOD (OR London OR NZ)

Spielberg: Ah how about we make the Zulus a race of Aliens from the planet Zoolah... Tom Cruise could be Chard, Ralph Fiennes could be Bromhead!

R.Fiennes: Just as long as I get to deny the existence of God once again in this film... or at least say that I hate HIM.

T.Cruise: Hi... My name's John Chard... let me say as I ease out of this mealie bag barricade - that I helped build... Help me Bromhead - help you -Help me help you - HELP ME... HELP YOU!

R.Scott: No, no, no! We must focus on the colonial aggression of the British administration as an example of how we must live together in peace today. The Zulu War is a parallel of the war of aggression in Iraq.

T.Scott: I disagree with my esteemed brother, Ridley. People don't care about ideology they want bang per buck. Let's give everyone explosive dumdums and everytime a bullet hits a kraal it will explode like BLAM!! Oh and I can get Kenny Loggins to do a cool Rock and Roll Zulu soundtrack. (sings) High-way toooo Kwa-Zululand...

D.Washington: I think that I would be perfect for the role of Cetshwayo. Check this out - No, no, no Dabulamanzi I do not concur, I did not give you those orders and you CANNOT cross the Natal border UNLESS I AGREE!

P.Jackson: I'm the best bloke to direct this movie... you don't even need to ask why. Of course we will have Andy Serkis playing TWO roles - he will be the Zulu king Cetshwayo who will be digitally created by WETA and the Colour Sergeant Bourne.

A.Serkis: (cradling his ikhlwa) My precciooussssssssss...

B.Ratner: No you guys are all poopheads. You wanna get Durnford and Simeon Khambula as the mismatched pair from two cultures, like a buddy cop movie. After all, they WERE members of the Natal Police - get it POLICE? And you can have Simeon say "DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMIN OUTTA MY MOUTH?" I got the perfect actor to cast for him too.

E.Murphy: Hey white man! Who you callin' a spear chucker!! Don't you see this is the story of how the white man is keepin' the white man down? We gotta make it an all black production. Even the white man will be played by black men! Hell, even the donkey will be played by a black man.
We get my bruthas Martin Lawrence and Marlon Wayans to play Pulleine and Durnford and of course we get Damon Wayans to play Simeon Khambula so its a beautiful story of the white brutha and his brutha - who really is his brutha.

J.Cameron: No no no... remember at this time the Industrial Revolution, the use of steel and MACHINES was in full swing. Men drove the iron horse through Africa - was that not why men like Bartle-Frere and Cecil Rhodes conquered South Africa? I see this as a conflict between man - and the Machine - Side of Mankind. War makes us like - MACHINES!

E.Zwick: Its not about machines it's about culture. Two cultures - one savage and honorable, the other, the so-called 'civilized' culture is actually more savage and repressive. Oh we must also have scenes where Durnford shoots off his Adams pistol behind one of the NNC volunteers who turns into a nervous wreck and then Durnford says "They're not ready!" We can get Caleb Deschanel to get lovely vistas of Zulu Land and have a steamy scene between the missionarys ahistorical daughter and Brad Pitt who plays Hook - but it turns out it's just a dream sequence! Actually the romantic angle is between Durnford and Fanny Colenso who exchange long erotic looks.

K.Costner: Any way I can get into that picture? We can call it - Dances with Zulus... or the Zulu Dance... or Easy Dancing with Cetshwayo.

J.Travolta: Wait, wait, wait, did someone say 'dancing'? I mean you can have a cool sequence when the Zulus are chasing the Brits through their camp in their bell bottom cowtails and have the soundtrack play "Stayin Alliiiiivvvveeeeeee"

T.Malick: You will have to wait fifteen years for me to finish shooting this delicate petal while shafts of light cascade upon it like a waterfall. I would like James Caviezel to be Chard and Ben Chaplin to be Durnford and we will have flashback scenes in the middle of the veldt of him and Fanny Colenso.

M.Gibson: I want to shoot it in its original Natalese - errr Zulu... whatever.
I think James Caviezel should be Durnford. He is the Christ figure of the piece - after all he is involved with the daughter of Bishop Colenso. BUT WAIT! The British are EVIL! I think we should make a movie about the Boers!

Watchowski Bros: I don't care just as long as Cetshwayo and Otto Witt can talk about lots of existential rubbish and we can have - 'Spear Time'!

B.Spears: Did someone say they have a movie offer for me?

J.Mostow: You idiots. No one wants to see a bunch of faggoty Brits behind stuck like pigs by brown dudes. No, no, no... We'll make them Americans in Natal trying to capture the Golden Toilet bowl of Ashanti - isn't she a singer or something? Maybe she can be in the movie. And while we're at it, let's make the bad guys German and change the setting to Atlantis.

Mel Brooks: Wait! Wait! WAIT! Lets make Otto Witt - RABBI WITT!!




Sorry for the sillyness I couldn't resist! (do I hear Graham Chapman rebuking me from somewhere?) I was going to write something on the different directors but it got a little out of hand...


Last edited by Tom516 on Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:20 am; edited 4 times in total

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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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Riiiiiight....what are you on, Tom? (Can I have some??)

Sheldon
No, my friends don't call me anything but Dawn if they know what's good for them, but....my user name on Trade Me (NZ version of Ebay) is Zuludawn.

Tom
Directors, well, I did mention on an earlier thread that I'd try to get a word into Peter Jackson's ear if I could get close enough. The closest I got was a writers' seminar in which Philippa Boyens spoke. (No sign of Peter anywhere!) Mind you, would he have the Zulus looking more like orcs?

As for opening scenes, I'll reveal a little of my opening scene, which is the morning of 21 January as the wagons that were left overnight on the other side of the Manzimyama Stream are brought into the camp. I prefer a more linear storytelling than flashbacks. In fact, we were told never to use flashbacks when I first started writing but have recently heard that now its OK. Go figure! Maybe readers have got more spohisticated?!

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Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
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Lets just say its a combination of very spicy KFC pizza (which is hot going in and hot going out! okay that's enough of that) and a hefty dose of Zulu game modding!

Okay I'll stop being silly (lest Colonel Graham Chapman come whack me with a swagger stick)

Well for your first few ones yes - and flashbacks within flashbacks get really dicey! The problem with flashbacks is it can be abused too easily. However they ARE an effective way of telescoping a long story and getting right into the action. I once saw a movie where the whole thing happens virtually as a flashback and the inciting point is where they kill the guy's son near the end and he calls up the rebel group - and it ends. Its meant to incite action in the viewer. Anyways, if it works it works. Welles used it in Caine, Cameron used it in Titanic, Wilder in Sunset so I guess it's okay if not overdone.

However with flashbacks, what my profs warned me against was too much narration - which many times goes hand in hand with flashbacks! You're supposed to show not tell. That being said, narration, if handled well - and the above films are prime examples of narration as well! - is powerful and can keep the story moving.

Oh and one last bit of sillyness in reference to your first question:

Dawn: "I'll have what he's having..."

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Tom

Thanks for the detailed description of the 2 scenes.

When you look at the 2 lines of dialogue from the first scene, where Frost is asking for reinforcements and ammunition, and Urquhart responds by saying he is not sure if it is a case of us coming for you, or you coming for us. It almost would suit the situation at Isandlwana.

If Durnford and Pulleine had managed to contact each other during the height of the battle, when all their men were fully engaged with the Zulus, both positions hard pressed by the enemy, it is the sort of thing that could have been said, as Durnford in the donga and Pulleine's firing line were in a desperate predicament, but really had no more time or room for manouevre, to support each other any more than they were already doing. A definite dilemma in both battles - set in the AZW and WW2.

Yes. I really do think they would have been great in both of these roles in 'Zulu Dawn'. Of course, Stanley Baker would have been first choice as Col. Durnford.

Coll

PS. Not too sure about the 'Carry On Up The Studio' post though.
Remake Zulu Dawn??
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