rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:04 pm

Yesterday I came across a newspaper article which noted that the Private after the War worked on tour with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show. I was intrigued. Any idea what he did with Buffalo Bill? Thanks!

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:59 pm

Rich

As I understand it he used to tell the story of the RD fight. Quite how he was made to ham it up for the public, I have no idea. Others might.

Regards

Mike

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:54 pm

Thanks Mike.....something like that is always a clue for me since it can open up some new areas where I can poke and see if anything comes up relating to the AZW from here! I wasn't aware of his exploits with BB! Hmmm, can you imagine if anyone took down what he said! I'm sure he had alot to say and kept those crowds out there enthralled.

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:07 pm

Has anyone found any original source material proving or explaining the connection between William Jones and the Wild West Show?

It is referenced in many books and articles, but none of them quote a source. I understand that the family's oral history supports the claim, but there are no details as to which tour was involved or what Pvt Jones did in the show. I've tried to research it through histories and memorabilia related to Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, but I haven't been able to find any references to the man. He doesn't appear in any of the programmes or contemporary news articles I've been able to locate.

I don't know if this is one of those self-perpetuating "facts" that each author repeats without challenge or if there is something tangible to support the reference.

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:55 pm

hi, i know its been a while since you asked about william jones and buffallo bill, but i did scout about and found a site which researches and answers questions on the same. here was the reply i received,
1. Re William Jones,
It is possible that this man was a part of Buffalo Bill's Wild West and Congress of Rough Riders of the World.

The show that toured in Great Britain from 1902 - 04 included a detachment of veteran English Lancers, who were advertised as having seen service in different parts of the British Empire, specifically South Africa.

English Lancers were first included in the Wild West in January 1892, and were also included in the version of the show that appeared in London from may until October in the same year.

2. The Georgians

It has now been clearly established that the 'Cossacks' who famously rode with Buffalo Bill's Wild West from 1892 onwards were in fact Georgians. There was deliberate ethnic misrepresentation at work here, on the part of the management of the Wild West.

please ignore the part about cossacks, i pasted it by mistake lol. the first reply that i had stated that a william jones also was a stable hand for bills show. but that may be another william jones. though its interesting that British lancers were a part of the show. p.s. did you ever find out more on this subject ?
regards ralph.

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:03 pm

Thanks Ralph.

I haven't been able to find anything concrete in any modern or Victorian source. The popular story falls under two themes. The first is that he was hired to give a memorized speech about Rorke's Drift as a "side show" attraction. He doesn't appear in any official programs I've seen so that is at least possible. The second version is that he was an anonymous laborer travelling with the show. I haven't found anything that states which tour he might have joined.

There are a number of very good books on the show's British tours, but none of them mention him nor do any of the contemporary newspaper articles I've been able to locate. You would think there would be some reference somewhere if it were true.

I'm still hoping a member of the forum has the answer.

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:14 pm

In the early 1880's he occasionally appeared on stage at Hamilton's Pansterorama, Rochdale Civic Hall, where he recited account of his actions at Rorke's Drift, and in 1887/88 he toured with Buffalo Bill's Wild West show. I also read that he gave his "recitation" in full uniform.

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:20 pm

Thanks so much for that. Can you direct us to your source for the information?

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:37 pm

http://www.gortonnews.org.uk/vol2no5/page9.html

Hope this helps.

I know it's not much of a start but its something to go on.

Jon

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:00 pm

It's always helpful to find another report, but this looks like the kind of local history that might be based on an oral tradition. Ideally, I would like to find a primary source. I would think that if he was a performer of some type there must be an account somewhere.

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:18 am

Dear all,
I've picked this thread up late,but may be able to shed some light on this one.The Gorton News link article was the story given to Gorton Historian, Sid Riley,whose cousin married into the Jones family from 593's second marriage,by Mrs V. Partridge, who worked with Norman Holme on his books (see preface, the Silver Wreath). This account is based on the oral tradition in that branch of this family. I can confirm that 593 appeared in Hamilton's Panstorarama in the early 1880's,where he did indeed relate the story of the defence of Rorke's Drift from the stage. Some authors mix the dates up and state that 593 appeared in Hamilton's in the 1890s and Buffalo Bill's in the 1880s.
Details of the Buffalo Bill's appearance is vague and has never been confirmed. I've mentioned this before, but if you read the excellent book, 'Buffalo Bill's Wild West', by RL Wilson with Greg Martin (ISBN 1-85367-367-6) there is no mention of 593's appearance and he can't be identified with any confidence on the photographs featured in the book. If 593 did appear in this show,it must have been in the 1890s when the show played at venues throughout the UK. I doubt his appearance in the show after 1900 as the affects of the rheumatism he suffered from would have reduced his capacity to perform. However, I can tell you that 593 related stories of his actual participation in the show to family members. It is said that he was 'invited' to take part in the show and as he already had some stage experience gained in Hamiltons,this experience may have been sufficient to gain him a place in the cast. Why this was kept low profile is a mystery.

Tony.

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:46 pm

Once again controversy raises it multi - headed form . When Willam Jones (593 VC )married for the second time in 1901 he was 61 and his wife to be was 51 , the wedding certificate for this marriage shows the female party as Elizabeth FRODSHAM , however if you look at the same couple on the 1901 census it quite clearly shows ELIZABETH JONES and two children named as JONES when in fact they were born as FRODSHAM , again certificates have been obtained in both these cases . William Jones VC at best was the STEP FATHER of these two children yet we are meant to accept that a 61 year old man and a 51 year old woman who married in 1901 had children but a check of the records showsthat Elizabeth FRODSHAM had these two children with her first husband .

Ever since i have started the on the rocky road of research there has been a rumour that " someone " has got or has seen a picture of William Jones taking part in the Buffalo Bill show . Tony Jones the descendant of William has clocked many hours and miles in pursuance of this picture and William`s participation in the Buffalo Bill show . If this picture exists it has yet to be seen or published .

Diligent research has also proved that the only ( confirmed to date ) son of William Jones VC was born in Dover in 1876 a fact indicated on the 1881 census where he is shown as being with his grandparents , amazingly though in many erroneous publications we are led to believe this " unconfirmed child " was born in South Africa where his mother died shortly after the birth of the child and William as soon as his wife was interred re- joined his regiment , just a small matrter of who and how arranged the return of this " child " no-one seems certain about , it just shows what PROPER research really shows .

It still haunts and upsets me that in the famous picture taken in 1898 at Brecon of the 7 VC winners no-one saw fit even to loan William a VC for the purposes of that photo ( not that VC`s were just at hand of course ) . As we know a few years later one Fred HITCH VC had his VC stolen and speaking for myself i hope one day to see all three medals obtained by William Jones VC to be on display at the 24th museum in Brecon , thank you , Graham.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:05 pm

Dear Graham,
I think if 593 had a piece of advice to give to anybody involved in AZW research at our level,it would be this:

'Keep your head down and don't make too much noise.'

I'm talking here about the way particular types of information are gathered and presented.The question we need to ask ourselves when assessing the worth of any piece of information is: 'who's telling the story'.
If writers choose to accept stories from a 'narrator' it's quite likely that during the passage of time there will be a certain amount of 'embelishment' or 'error' present in that account.If a writer then decides to present this information in book or article form there is always the chance that it may be corrected at a later date.

The use of 'Focus' is the tool used by certain writers to present AZW matters in a controversial light,as was evidenced in the Timewatch programme and Saul David books.This is the angle from which the writer decides to unfold a story.This is an intelligent tool to achieve an end but not necessarily an accurate one.This is a writer's own 'point-of-view' on the chosen subject.However,like Clint Eastwood said in the film 'Dirty Harry' to the Mayor,'Opinions are like a certain part of the anatomy which both genders possess-everybody has one' (putting it nicely).Dirt Harry's use of a particular body part as a reference,encapsulated what he tought about the Mayor's opinion! (see reading between the lines later).

Therefore,if you could be afforded the luxury of a personal interview with every defender of Rorke's Drift,you would be provided with a different
account,i.e. viewpoint, of what actually happened at the mission station,for every defender,but with a common theme running through all those accounts,i.e..the defense of the mission station.
Anything other than this is an interpretation relative to the skill of a writer based on an accurate representation of any information they encounter.Speculation and opinion have their place or else nothing would ever be written about anything.However,there needs to be a distinction drawn between speculation,opinion and truth to avoid 'tangents' being accepted as 'truths'.

Opinion always need careful scrutiny.The best way to achieve any credibilty it to present facts that lets the reader come to their own conclusions about any given topic.Usually the best judge of the worth of any written matrial is what is revealed 'between the lines'.

Tony.