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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Paul B-Q

I have just (again) measured the distances from the Ngwebeni valley to Isandlwana and, as the crow flies, they are as follows:

Right horn 6.8 miles (11 km)
Centre 5.6 miles (9 km)
Left Horn 6.3 miles (10 km)

The left horn probably marched from the southern end of the valley, across the plain, as did the reserve. In my own calculations, I have assumed that the warriors jogged at about 5 mph, basing that ssumption on Smith-Dorrien's description of their gait as 'a very fast half-walk, half-run'.

If you want to do some calculations of distance and time, and wish to test the claim that the Zulu were already partly out of the valley and advancing, then reduce the distances travelled by the right horn and centre by three miles. Sorry, the text is now jumping so cannot write more.

KIS
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Peter Quantrill
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Chris,
Your post of 12 October. We did not take a GPS reading of the location from where the photograph was taken. (Appendix D)
In terms of yardage, the distance looking west towards the crest/hill where x was marked by Wood, was approximately 5/600 yards.
What was astonishing was to find cattle in front of us - took us back to 1879.
Peter
Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 543
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Peter Quantrill wrote:
What was astonishing was to find cattle in front of us - took us back to 1879.

Peter Q

I must say that I have always thought that your account of the battle had all the vividness of an eye-witness ...

Very Happy
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Peter Quantrill
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Correction to last post:
That should read 'looking from west to east.'
Peter Quantrill
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Thank you Paul.
The three of us, Rob G, Ron & self were mesmorised by what we saw.
Speechless would be an understatement. In our opinions, we were looking at what Raw and the NNH saw as they rushed to cut the cattle off. The only missing link were the cattle herders and Zulu scouts.
Peter
Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 543
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Apropos of nothing in particular, when I went to Isandlwana in 2006 the weather was very changeable. On the first morning of our visit, swift moving dark clouds, interspersed with patches of light, dappled the landscape; as the clouds gathered, the white cairns seemed bright beneath them. Looking out from C Coy's cairn there was a brief shower, and then a perfect rainbow, which stretched from wing to wing over the battlefield.

I believe Haydn has (or had) a picture of it.

Teneu awel; tew lletkynt:
Pereid y rycheu
Ny phara ae goreu —
Tru ar a vu nat ydynt.


"Keen is the thin wind; the sorrow of loss enfolds all:
The furrows remain
They who made them do not —
It is wretched that those who were are no more."

[Welsh, 9th century]


Last edited by Paul Bryant-Quinn on Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Chris

The three maps (known as A, B and C) which Durnford produced while sitting on the Boundary Commission at Rorke's Drift in May 1878, each annotated (although not in his hand) and bearing Durnford's signature certifying them to be true copies, have been reproduced in full colour in three double-page spreads (one for each map) on glossy paper, in Huw M. Jones, The Boiling Cauldron: Utrecht District & the Anglo-Zulu War, 1879 (2006).

They all cover the disputed territory and the annotations refer to the physical features discussed during the Commission's deliberations. The originals are apparently held in the KZN Archives Repository, so you're in luck there.

Peter
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Boiling Cauldron
Chris


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 180
Location: S.A.
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Peter Ewart wrote:

Chris
The three maps (known as A, B and C)
Huw M. Jones, The Boiling Cauldron: Utrecht District & the Anglo-Zulu War, 1879 (2006).
Peter



Thanks Peter ,
[just shotened the quote a bit seeing as it is right above ]

Just looking now at a book review of Boiling Cauldron

Seems to be the one to look out for -- will have to check the library.

KZN Archives Repository is in a bit of a mess at the moment. Their old building was being renovated when the "builder" went bust without completing the contract.

Works Dept have not pushed the work forward and so now apparently the archive holdings are being stored in the KZN Provincial Library Building all in boxes ( or whatever)

I have however located a real cornucopia / Treasure Trove / Goldmine of maps ( copies of originals all in VG condition )

I have just this morning looked upon Durnfords maps
as well as some by Shepstone ( including Natal tibes and their locations as well as Shepstones original native locations
as well as many back to 1850 and before including title deed maps.

Durnfords maps appear to have been done in the same way and on the same material as the Anstey and Penrose examples.

All very exciting and fascinating. I am told that the old original private surveyor work is accurate to within inches -- I will have to check this out some time.

Unfortunately anyone wanting copies will have to fly out to SA and then try and tackle the inaccessible KZN Provincial Archives -- if they can or do still want to find all this old stuff.

That is the price of serious research ............
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Chris

Which "Durnfords maps" are you referring to now? The ones you've examined this morning, I mean.

Presumably not the ones in KZN provincial archives if they're in a bit of an inaccessible mess at present? Or in the KCAL? It's not clear from your post.

Peter
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paul mercer


Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Tavistock, Devon
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[quote="mike snook 2"]Paul

Thanks for that Mike, it's great to have so many people who are willing to give their time and expertise to this forum
Paul
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Chris

Forgot to mention in my earlier post that the printed sketch map of Zululand made by Durnford ("compiled from original sources and personal observation and information") and dated September 1878 can be found at Kew (TNA). This, too, is reproduced in The Boiling Cauldron as a double-page spread.

No doubt he relied heavily on his 1877 travels when creating this map, although of course he had already personally observed and sketched the country during the visit into the interior when he met Cetshwayo in 1873.

Peter
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Ron L


Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Location: South Africa
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Gentlemen,

Our decoy theory as expressed in ‘Zulu Victory’, is very much a side issue of TM5H thesis which was certainly not written with the intention shoring up the decoy hypothesis. Nevertheless, I will return to it in a moment.

Although ‘Zulu Rising’ may have been finalized before TM5H was publicized, the existence of the Killie Campbell maps was highlighted in ‘Blood on the Painted Mountain’, published in 1995, the relevant text reading ‘The previous day [21 Jan.] the Zulu Army had completed its march through the hills and was now encamped, in regiments strung out for about four miles, along the Nqutu plateau above Isandlwana.’
In 1996 ‘Blood’ was reviewed by Ian in ‘Soldiers of the Queen’, but no comment was made in respect of Wood’s map which I had replicated by a cartographer as my copy of the original was too dark for publication. In fact, it was so murky that the ‘X’, marking the position of Raw’s encounter was not discernible. It was only recently when examining the original map at Killie Campbell Library, that the “X’ and its significance became apparent.

To return to the decoy theory:
'’Zulu Victory’ does not suggest that Lord Chelmsford’s column was decoyed from the camp. Page 151makes this quite clear, the Zulus deception only being implemented once the column neared Dartnell’s bivouac. It was then that the column was led into a day long chase amongst the hills, endeavouring to get to grips with an enemy that eluded it, while the main Zulu army fell upon the camp ten miles away.. Peter Q. in an earlier posting mentioned an unsigned Horse Guards letter expressing opinion that Chelmsford was decoyed. In addition we have a copy of a letter bearing the Windsor Archives stamp. (RA VIC/0 33/92). The letter is dated Feb. 11/79 and headed “The Isandlnana [sic] Disaster. A memorandum from the Intelligence Dept’.. It goes on to say that whilst the Dept. will endeavour to describe what took place, much must remain guesswork as the chief officers were killed. Writing of Chelmsford’s conduct the report states ‘He did not keep up proper communication with his camp. He was led away by the Zulus who decoyed him from the Camp. In the meanwhile the Zulus collected in thousands under the hills near the camp …’ The report is unsigned.

On the ground, support for our decoy theory:’ Zulu Victory’ (P.141) states
1. On the afternoon of the 21st Lt. Brown and a patrol of IMI are led away to the east at a time when the Z.A. was moving west to take up a position north of the camp.

2. On the arrival of Chelmsford’s column at Dartnell’s bivouac the vast number of the enemy that had been reported earlier had retreated to strong defence positions (P.154) and Chelmsford endeavoured to outflank them with Russell’s IMI. Russell pursued various Zulu elements, ‘the mass of the enemy,’ (TNA(PRO WO 33/34), being led hither and thither in two complete circles, covering some 16 to 20 miles over a period of seven hours without firing a shot. Likewise the infantry were drawn into ground described by the war correspondent of the Natal Mercury as ‘A stronger position than that of the enemy would be hard to imagine.’.

3. Captain Hallam Parr of Chelmsford’s staff wrote ‘The morning was spent in endeavouring to get to close quarters with an enemy who could and did avoid us at his pleasure’.

4.The Natal Witness reported ‘Although they showed themselves in a very considerable form all along the hill tops, they kept retiring, according to what, as after events taught us, must have been a preconceived plan.’.

5.Lt. Milne R.N. wrote ‘The main body of the enemy who had been in our front all morning, were now assembled at the foot of Isipezi Hill, watching the movements of the mounted infantry who were scouring the plain some distance off, but on their approach they all retreated to the tableland on the top of Isipezi Mt.’ In addition Milne wrote “I saw small clusters of the enemy on every hill top all around us, observing our movements.’

Meanwhile the Zulu Army had destroyed the British Camp.
The Duke of Cambridge also had something noteworthy to say. On the 11 August 1879, via Sir Charles Ellice, he wrote to Lord Chelmsford: …’ His Royal Highness has come to the conclusion that the primary cause of the misfortune, and that which led to all the others, was the under estimate formed of the offensive fighting power of the enemy’.

Special note for Mike. It was not the 24th who were decoyed, it was their boss!

Ron Lock

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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Gentlemen

Those interested might care to re-visit the RDVC 'Pot Pourri' section to re-read my paper on the 'Annontated Maps'. I have now updated it with an addendum which Ron and Peter applaud (a bit).
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/potpourri/henderson_maps.pdf

KIS
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Pot Pourri
Chris


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 180
Location: S.A.
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Keith Smith wrote:

Gentlemen
Those interested might care to re-visit the RDVC 'Pot Pourri' section to re-read my paper on the 'Annontated Maps'. I have now updated it with an addendum which Ron and Peter applaud (a bit).
KIS


Thanks Keith

re -- the other question ( Peter Ewart)

Someone over a length of time doing other research made full size (good) copies of a large number of the historical maps in the KZN Provincial archive.

This collection covers the land history of Natal / Zululand quite comprehensively.

I am told that due to certain current political connotations attached to some of these maps they are now kept "off-shelf"

Does 1913 mean anything to you ?????
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Chris

Good to hear the maps have been copied. "Off shelf?" Then demand them, man! Are they in the catalogue? Then call them up! Smile

Easier said than done, I suppose. The more I hear of how archives research in KZN is going the more I wince, although having experienced it only at a distance myself. (I haven't visited these repositories in person).

1913? Native Land Act, I presume. Finally coming home to roost?

Peter
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