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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:09 am

Does any one have an opinion of Lt Raw's movements in the battle ,most books explain how he and his mounted men found the Zulus but few explain what happend after that and when and how he escaped.

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:35 am

Andrew,

Like you say - Raw's movements before the battle are quite well known. Not so much after it.

Raw and Roberts were sent out some time in advance of Durnford's own departure to scour the ground beyond the spur. The reported contact at Ngwebeni Valley is up for debate although I personally am fairly sure this took place there and initial firing did indeed take place there.

As Raw quotes, �The enemy in small groups retiring before us for some time, drawing us on for four to five miles from the camp where they turned and fell upon us, the whole army showing itself from behind a hill in front where they had evidently been waiting�. The debates in the past mention a hill not a valley. Different argument! Laughing

Also up for debate is - was it Raw himself or Raw's men that had the initial encounter and was the impi already moving in a deployment role?

From Mabaso / Ngwebeni Valley or iThusi, Raw was retreating on Nyoni Ridge Westwards - back to Tahelane.

http://www.isandlwana1879.co.uk/index_files/Page3364.htm

As far as I remember, Raw withdrew back to camp, back down the spur and onto the low ground to the North of the camp. Lt Roberts was killed on the ridge either by a lucky Zulu shot or by friendly (shell-)fire.

As far as I remember I think it was Brickhill who mentioned that Raw's troop departed the battlefield through the Saddle. At Fugitives Drift, Raw provided covering fire from the Natal bank for survivors.

I believe Raw did make a report after the battle.

Jamie

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:58 pm

The contact with the Umcityu regiment was made simultaneously by Shepstone/ Raw, Barton /Roberts (not just Shepstone/ Raw) some two and a half miles west of Mabasa and the Ngwebeni Valley.
It may be described as a distinct ridge overlooking two streams, namely west/east and north/south Ngwebeni streams that both run into the main Ngwebeni Valley stream north of Mabasa.
Contact distance from camp, four miles more or less, on the northern edge of the Nqutu plateau under the Nqutu Range of hills.

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:34 pm

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the input. I guess my opinion was formed on the basis of the different view points of experts in the field like yourself and Mike Snook amoungst others. All excellent books. I had to guess-timate the terrain prior to my first visit to Isandlwana but then when I got there I spent the time out in the hot sun walking the area and in particular - near iThusi.

My opinion is that both Cochrane and Jabez Molife, who were with Durnford, say they had gone round iThusi and two miles up that valley before they encountered Zulus coming in the opposite direction. That could be consistent with the Zulus starting from the Ngwebeni - if they had been just the other side of iThusi, Durnford would have ridden into them the moment he turned the corner.

I do also believe there is contradictory evidence that the Raw encounter may have - as you say happened closer to camp than the traditional story's go.

Regards,

Jamie

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:16 pm

Jamie,
The area of the contact was, as I have described, west of the current Babanango/ Isandlwana Lodge road.
And yes, Durnford had rounded iThusi. It was the Umcityu/ NNH contact that resulted in the speed with which the Ngobamakosi, Uve, Udhloke and Undi deployed from exisiting positions SOUTH of Mabaso to meet Durnford. Minutes in fact.This timing would have been difficult to achieve had these regiments been located north of Mabaso. From Durnford's exact approximate position, he could not see the regiments. He may have sighted them minures later. The firefight with the Umcityu precipitated a general advance.

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:47 pm

Hi Peter,

Over the large ridge on the skyline and to the left?

http://www.isandlwana1879.co.uk/index_files/Page3894.htm

Regards,

Jamie

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:02 pm

Jamie,
No. I think that the reference you give leads to Mabaso.
The annotations on the pictorials, are,in my view, incorrect.
We are talking west of the Isandlwana Lodge road off the Babanango road, an area that has perhaps arguably been infrequently traversed or analysed.

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:14 pm

Thanks Peter,

Even I have not ventured up that way on foot ! Shocked

In the photo, Mabaso Ridge is to the right - just out of shot.

BTW - Can you shine any more light on Raw's movements after his retreat from Nyoni? Would be interesting to find out.

Many thanks,

Jamie

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:48 am

Jamie,
Raw records, in his statement WO 33/34, being positioned 'to the left of a Company of the 24th having on our left a troop of Lonsdale's men.'
He describes the demise of the artillery and then goes on to record crossing the Buffalo and arriving at Helpmakaar 'about eight in the evening.'
A close relationship had formed between Raw, Henderson and Vause.
Vause joined Wood's Column and there met up with Raw and Henderson.
On 4 May, Henderson, Raw and Vause agreed that the first to get married would give a champagne supper!
Charlie Raw married Polly, the eldest sister of Wyatt Vause. The liberal politian Vause-Raw was one of their direct desendants.
Peter

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:11 am

Excellent, thanks Peter,

Jamie

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:36 pm

Hi Peter,
I have drawn a path from the Ngwebini valley for 2.5 miles to the West of the Babanango/ Isandlwana Lodge road. Is this the location you refer to?

BTW, I'm wondering if there is such a thing as an "exact" approximate position? Smile

[URL=http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2091386220103390575lviCMs]

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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:31 am

Mel,
Thank you for the trouble you have taken. The spot that you have indicated is too close to the Isandlwana road.
Using a Survey map, take the southern edge of Mabasa, (1308) then move west to the distance indicated.
A GPS reading may help:
S 28 19' 17.3"
E 30 41'47.8"
The terrain is, as explained in previous postings, at the foot of the Nqutu Range of hills,close to the two Ngwebwni streams,hidden from view from iThusi and Magaga Knoll (Barry's picquet) and west of Mabasa and the Ngwebeni Valley.
Trust this helps.
Peter

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:51 am

http://www.isandlwana1879.co.uk/index_files/Page3430.htm

A photo looking to the North West taken from Mabaso Ridge.

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:18 am

Sorry for bringing everyone back to my original question, do we know when Raw made his decision to retire and where and what time he crossed the river

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:44 pm

Raw's account is actually WO32/7713/079/1521. He is mentioned in the accounts of Barker and Davies if you want to follow these up. The only correctly-identified photo of him I know of appears in the JAZWRS Vol. 7, Issue 2, p11. There is a misidentified photo in Greaves's Isandlwana p.104.