rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:28 am

I�m going to throw this one out and see what happens.

I am sure that everyone will agree with me that Alan and Peter have made possible one of the most important on-line forums of discussion and comment on the Anglo-Zulu war that there is, and we are all immeasurably in their debt. It�s often been said, but bears repeating, that they deserve not just our gratitude but also our continued practical support: not least because this forum is a gold mine of information which has been generously shared over a decade and more by many with key research interests and expertise, and has frequently been stimulated by question and debate from enthusiastic enquirers, whose contribution is no less important. I don't even want to begin to think about what the loss of this archive would mean.

But what next? In an article written in 2002, Prof. John Laband asked a simple but important question of Anglo-Zulu War studies in general, and one which may be applicable to us too: �Where to from here?� Would there, I wonder, be any interest in discussing that question here: where should Anglo-Zulu War studies be headed - and from that, what next for this forum?

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:16 pm

Paul,

Before we start, may one enquire as to what Prof. Laband's thoughts were on the subject?

AMB

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:20 pm

Paul

Being able for an enthusiast to study and qualify in a course solely covering the Anglo-Zulu War 1879.

I'd enrol immediately !

Well, after I know how much it would cost, as a garden design course costs nearly � 1,000.00.

Coll

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:24 pm

Hi AMB

Essentially, it was not so much where John Laband felt AZW studies should or shouldn't go that interested me, but what we as an online community felt about it, and about what directions our own forum might take. It's as open as that, and as the OP I don't want to limit what may (or may not!) come out of this thread.

For those interested in his article, it can be read here:
http://www.azwhsmember.org/anglozuluwarstudieswheretofromhere/

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:27 pm

Paul

Thanks for the link, which I've now read.

I'll try to give an opinion as best I can.

Maybe all that can be written about the Anglo-Zulu War 1879 has already been written. Is there anything left to say in new publications ?

I'm not sure, but will a time to stop happen, sooner or later ?

However, all that has been written, has not been read by the vast majority of enthusiasts, many only managing to acquire recent publications covering the battles, etc., but not the gritty technical details, stored away in archives, etc., where only a few have tread.

Harold Raugh is working on an AZW bibliography, which will be a huge help, but can everyone obtain the excellent information supplied ?

Keith Smith's books, of which I have none, including many other publications supplied by D. P. & G. Publishers, make quite a bit obtainable to the wider audience, but not all.

Perhaps, rather than print 'new' books, establish an affordable encyclopaedic library of all this information on the Anglo-Zulu War 1879.

Volumes created from all the acquired details over the years, to let us all gain full knowledge of the campaign and not just scraping the surface.

Everything may have been written, but many of us haven't had the opportunity to appreciate the full extent of the research undertaken by historians all these years.

If all study is done, or nearly done, it should be readily available to all, as we'll never truly understand events, without knowing everything.

I don't think this is the response you seek, but it is a subject worth talking about.

Coll

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:30 am

Paul

Not too sure where you going with this. I understand your original question, and a very valid one it is. But the article you link to by Prof Laband comes over (to me personally) as a simple plug for the AZWHS -- of which Mr Laband is a senior office holder.

He stresses more than once what a great job the AZWHS is doing in preserving AZW history, etc and then produces a long reading list comprising overwhelmingly of AZWHS stalwarts. Has he never heard of Mike Snook, for example ??

We all have our own personal tastes, including in authors, but I fear the likes of Greaves, Knight, and to a lesser extent Laband himself, have turned AZW into an industry. Arent they even offering some sort of educational course/qualification now via AZWHS ??

Maybe Mr Laband fears the "industry" may fall victim to the recession.

Sorry if this not very positive. But I concur with Coll in so much that I have acquired a large collection of books on AZW but have found the time to read only 25% of them. Looking forward to the time when I can settle down and start to read my way thru them, and that will hopefully help to increase my knowledge some more.

Best regards
PRS

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:51 am

I interpreted the link to the article as background to the question, nothing else.

It may be increasingly difficult to find a new angle to fill a whole book, but much remains to to be learned when looking at individuals. In trying to discover more about the fate of Vereker, I have encountered conflicting impressions of his death and possible misinterpretation of source material by authors.

Perhaps now the focus is on individuals rather than events?

Peter

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:17 am

PRS

Thanks for the response. I can already see that mentioning Prof. Laband was a mistake. To be fair to him, though, his article was written some three years before Mike's books were published.

Let me try to express myself better: I was absolutely NOT proposing a thread discussing Laband's article, much less the AZWHS. What I was trying to suggest was that the general question he posed, namely "where to from here", might be an interesting one for us too.

Is he, for example, right when he says that:

... it was a minor campaign, and that meaningful investigation into how it was conducted must necessarily be finite. Therefore, those of us studying the Anglo Zulu War must accept when it has come time to stop. That point, I believe, is not now far away.

... and if not, why not? Have we in fact already exhausted the "meaningful investigation"? Or, to put it another way, have we as a forum done the big topics and are now down to refining our understanding of the minutiae, or are there in fact still key themes to discuss? What areas of AZW interest do you think are under-researched?

As I said earlier, it's just an attempt to get a forum discussion underway. But the topic is, I think, an interesting and important one.

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:27 am

To be fair, I hadn't written my books at the time Laband published this piece. The article foretells the publication of Zulu Victory as a future event and How Can Man Die Better came out after ZV.

As ever

Mike

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:28 am

Paul

Simultaneous posting!

M

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:34 am

Mike

As ever, I trail in your illustrious wake ...

Wink

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:47 am

....hardly!

M

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:02 am

Peterw

I think that is an important point - thank you.

For me, the AZW did not occur in some hermetically sealed environment. As we know, it impacted on individuals and communities beyond the immediate theatre of war. In Wales, and assuredly elsewhere, the reaction of communities to the news of Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift is a fascinating area of research in its own right.

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:35 pm

Paul et al:

I read your initial post with great interest and I'd like to add a little comment.

A number of years ago the Internet never existed. A forum, i.e. really a historical/social network if you will , like this would have been impossible to achieve under the circumstances and I'd think the AZW notwithstanding the popularity of "Zulu" would have been simply a backwater topic constrained simply to discussion among academics. But today as Prof Laband has noted Zulu studies have burgeoned mainly to all the books, pamphlets, monographs, and theses produced plus the research/historical societies and, of course, to this site. I think this site is very helpful for AZW studies because it is through discussion on AZW topics that perhaps new topics can make themselves manifest through analysis and debate here. It is one of the many avenues used to study and get involved in the British/Zulu history for both writers, academics, non-academics and enthusiasts alike. And I think the site in conjunction with other media could help to "popularize" the topic even more and raise its awareness with possibly new upcoming historians and readers.

And just an observation: the site is called Rorkesdriftvc.com, a homage to one famous battle of the AZW. But yet we talk about eveyrthing here in the AZW. It's not just about Rorke's Drift. I mean this site is comprehensive!

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:14 pm

Paul

An interesting question.

General interest in the Zulu War I�m sure is linked irrefutably to the publication of TWOTS, and the release of �Zulu� in 1964. I bet that most of the readers of this site can honestly say that their interest in the AZW stems from seeing this film. However, 1964 was 45 years ago and the generation that saw the film then (and who would have influenced the succeeding generation) are aging and our numbers are rapidly reducing. I am firmly of the opinion that the film�s influence will only extend for those two generations. To the youth of today, the film is clearly dated, has no current major Hollywood stars (Michael Caine not being a current youth icon !) and probably isn�t violent or fast enough ! Even in the Welsh valleys, where �Zulu� is seen as a documentary, filmed at the time, interest is on the wane.

As an illustration of this decline, I gave a lecture on RD in January of this year to some 200 recruits at the Army training centre in Catterick. Of the 200 or so recruits, less than a quarter had seen �Zulu� ! And this was to an audience of youngsters (a third of whom were destined to serve in the Royal Welsh) who clearly have an interest in things military. Unless anything occurs to revive a general interest in the war (say a re-make of �Zulu�), then interest in the war will slowly decline over the next ten to fifteen years. The �special place� that the AZW has claimed (because of the film) will slowly be eroded and it will take its place once again as just another colonial war. It would be interesting to see sales figures for books on the AZW over the last ten years, to see if there been a general decline ? Even at present, unless an AZW book has �Zulu�, �Rorke�s Drift� or �Isandlwana� in its title, I�m sure its sales are reduced to those with a very specialised interest � maybe a couple of thousand at most ?

All of the �main players� seem to have written books outlining their viewpoints on various aspects of the AZW, perhaps now is the time that a DEFINITIVE (if there ever can be such a thing on the AZW) account is required bringing everything written in the last ten years (and there has been a lot of it) into some sort of perspective. Who will attempt such a magus opus ? Well, I believe Ian Knight is currently working on a book doing just that. A book that will cover Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift, updating his original works, taking into account what has been written recently, and also looking very much at things from a Zulu perspective" ? No pressure, Ian !!!!!!!!

Bill