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Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:48 pm

Helo,

I'm trying to research a soldier of the 1/24th killed at the battle of Isandlwana and wanted to know if there was any way of knowing to which company he was attached during the battle?

The other question I have: Is there a copy of the original roll of the 24th Regiment killed at Isandlwana on the internet somewhere, or in a book? The roll I'm looking for would be the very first compiled by the regiment after the disaster?

My kindest thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide.

Best wishes,

David

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:08 pm

David,

Who are you researching?

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Hello Martin,

Thanks for your response.

The chap is ********

Kind regards,

David

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:51 am

David,

There is no detail other than he enlisted on 31 July 1858 - so almost of pensionable service at Isandlwana. All you can do is track down through the pay and muster rolls of 1/24th in WO12/4114 onwards in the National Archives to see whether there is any personal details. Better search would be through census records. There are no company rolls from Isandlwana - 'they went down with the ship'

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:35 am

Martin.
where do you find your information i like David am trying to find relatives who served in these campaigns .
i know my great great grandfather served in India and relatives say he had a brother and cousins that served in Africa.
but thats all they know .
i found in the list of casualties at Isandlwana three soldiers with the same surname but not sure where to go now for more information.
thanks in advance for any help.
kelsard.

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:10 pm

Dear Kelsard,

Most of the secrets are held at the National Archives at Kew - you have to go there and search yourself. Most families would like to have a great story of having a relative at Rorke's Drift or at Isandlwana, but most genelogists would advise that the best way is to work back down through the generations compiling your family tree as you go rather then pick out a likely name from a roll from 130 years ago and hope that it fits.

You really need to start with a birth, death and marriage - births and marriages can tell you a lot - particularly if the event occured overseas - perhaps India - which regiments were there at the time?

We have compiled as much as we can on the soldiers of 24th who served in South Africa 1877-79 - some 2,500 men - the research was started some 40 years ago by Norman Holme and has grown since more information has come to light. Often service documents have NOT survived - so the information has been compiled from civil records, newspapers etc and more often donated by the family. In some cases we have found nothing. This type of research is certainly not so easy as it appears on some recent TV programmes.

The museum would normally charge �15-�25 to supply the details we have on a particular soldier - this helps museum funds - and is a fraction of what it would cost in time and effort to go the National Archives.

There are lots of published guides which explain how undertake family miltary history research - available through the National Archives bookshop.

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:07 pm

I had not intended for my question to be genealogy based, as I am aware that there is basically nothing more that can be discovered of these men who fell at Isandlwana. I have Norman Holme's book, as well as several other good sources related to the battle. This is the reason I had not focused my initial question on my actual research subject.

However with that said, thank you very much Martin for your informative responses, they are very helpful indeed. Your knowledge of this subject is simply amazing!

May I ask again please, is there a source that has the original roll of thoes killed at Isandlwana, as originally compiled by the regiment after the disaster. This roll would naturally include many errors that the 'newer' rolls have corrected.

Thanks again,

David

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:42 pm

Dear David,

The direct answer to your question is No.

First of all, this research is not an exact science as everyone would like it to be. Most original documents are handwritten and of course were compiled in the days before we had computers. Norman Holme, for instance, started with a card index system. There are many inconsistencies in the spelling of names. Approximately 10% of soldiers served under an alias. There were soldiers with similar names and numbers. I still have about 10 errors with casualties that I have not been able to resolve.

While in South Africa the 24th lost 711 men, 596 were killed at Isandlwana. That is a significant number. Most people seem to focus on the medal rolls � for obvious reasons, they are looking for that extra something to enhance the interest in the medal.

Again the research requires time and dedication � and Normal Holme and Julian Whybra have spent years on this. I also have spent many hours in the National Archives at Kew, the archives at Killie Campbell in Durban and in Pietermaritzburg, and walking the cemeteries in Cape Town, King William�s Town, Komaga, Pietermaritzburg, Pinetown. Many graves in South Africa were consolidated in 1960s and errors made on new memorials subsequently erected there.

There are a number of source documents you could start with:

1. Historical Records of the 24th Regiment (published 1892): The regiment�s casualties (battle and disease) for Frontier and Zulu Wars 1877-79 are listed on pages 256-262. The list does not include earlier 1/24th deaths in Southern Cape. However this was used to produce the brass memorial tablet in Brecon Cathedral unveiled in 1898.

2. WO100/46 Medal Roll for South Africa Medal for 1/24th and 2/24th: Handwritten in the National Archives - transcribed by D R Forsyth (1978) and Norman Holme (1964) and The Noble 24th (1999). There are errors by battalion clerks and by the later transcribers. Held at the National Archives at Kew. Some names are missing!

3. WO25/3474 - Casualty Returns (all units) for the Frontier and Zulu Wars 1878-1879: Handwritten folder in the National Archives at Kew (contains errors and inconstancies). Transcribed (with further errors!) by Ian Tavender (1985 republished 2004). This is the basis of the London Gazette Supplement entries - so the errors and inconsistencies in the handwritten returns are replicated in the London Gazette. Its further failing is that it only includes battle casualties - those soldiers who died of disease are often not listed. Probably the least reliable list.

4. WO25/3368 - Casualty Returns for the 24th Regiment (1850-1903): Handwritten ledger in the National Archives. Maintained by the 24th Regiment - more reliable than WO25/3474 as it contains both battle & disease casualties, but individual entries often do not quote regimental number, date and place of death of casualty.

5. Muster Book & Pay Lists for 1/24th and 2/24th 1875-1880: WO12/4131, WO12/4132, WO16/1573, WO16/1574, WO16/1579, WO16/1580 held at the National Archives at Kew. Very useful to check spelling of names, regimental numbers, but it is painstaking work to track a man through each of quarter of the pay sheets. Deaths outside of Isandlwana are normally listed.

6. The Military Casualties of South Africa � Volume 1 1834-1878 � Compiled by TE Sole. Copy held by Castle Museum, Cape Town. Pages 71-72.

7. Contemporary South African Newspapers. These do list casualties in the AZW (without regimental numbers). Extracts are included in the Red Book - Natal Press Reports published by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill in 2001.

I hope that has not confused you - but spurred you on to find out more.

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:59 am

David,
sorry if i changed the subject for you it was not meant to turn to genealogy.
i just wondered where Martin obtained his information from as he seems to be able to answer most people's questions with a great deal of accuracy.
Thanks Martin for your help when i have a bit more time on my hands i will follow this up.
Once again David sorry for changing the subject.

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:27 am

I moved the topic to 'Genealogy' because I consider the section to be more appropriate.

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:52 pm

Hello Martin,
Thank you so much again for all that! I live in Canada so it will not be easy to look at these things, but my hope is to hire someone at some point to have a look on my behalf. At least now I know where to look.

Kelsard27,
No apologies necessary, your questions are of interest to me too.

Alan,
No worries, whatever the section, my questions were answered with great speed and to my great sastisfaction...so very pleased.

THANK YOU all for your help, it goes a long way to help in my research.

Kind regards,
David

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:29 pm

Dear David,

If you do not have a copies, Norman Holme's 'The Noble 24th' and Julian Whybra's 'England's Sons' are a good starting point for your research. See our on-line store/shop. Certainly cheaper than hiring a researcher for the time being.

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:40 pm

Thanks again Martin, I cant seem to find a link to 'England's Sons'?

Would you mind making some recomendations on especially good books on the topic of Isandlwana for someone with an advanced interest.

Kind regards,
David

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:56 pm

David,

See www.rrw.org.uk - click on shop - author 'Julian Whybra'

The best book on Isandlwana is 'Hill of the Sphinx' by F W D Jackson.

If you require a passionate good read with combined with accuracy gathered from hours 'walking the ground' at Isandlwana - then 'How Can Man Die Better' by Lt Col Mike Snook (currently out of print - we are waiting for the paperback version).

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:20 pm

Excellent Martin, this should give me much to read.
A very big thank you again for all of this!!!
Best wishes,
David