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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:19 pm

As far as I can glean the RA Rank & File at Isandlwana would appear to have been equipped with a mixture of swords and revolvers as personal weapons; there being sufficient carbines held with each gun (2 or 4 only) so as to allow RA sentries to be mounted on them according to need.

Can anybody provide a further view on that.

G

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:14 pm

Galloglas,

Twelve 0.577 Snider carbines per-battery, so two carbines for each cannon of the battery so to speak.

In addition there were seventy-four sword bayonets. Not quite enough for a battery-strength of what should have amounted to a hundred & sixty-seven other-ranks.

To my knowledge there were no pistols or swords worn by the other-ranks of the battery, with the possible exception of the battery's Serjeant-Major & the Quartermaster Serjeant. I believe the events of Isandlwana changed that though.

John Y.

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:39 pm

It's an interesting line of thought as the reference to "some of them had revolvers" (or similar words) in one of the Zulu sources could possibly indicate that several RA were involved in that group stand; though not conclusively I would agree.

G

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:36 pm

Galloglas,

Do you have a source for the reference?

I like to look at it and see if I can glean anything from it?

Thanks in anticipation,

John Y.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:28 pm

Minor error (of memory) by me but the source is Mehlokazulu recorded in translation by Lt Col E Harding Steward RE, RE Journal of 2nd February 1880; which includes at Page 24 (LHS):

"Those that ran away took the direction of the Buffalo river, some throwing their guns away and others firing as they ran. When we closed in, we came on to a mixed party of mounted and infantry men, who had evidently been stopped by the end of our horn. These numbered about a hundred. They made a desperate resistance, some firing with pistols, and others using swords, and I repeatedly heard the word "Fire" given by someone. " Last word is in italics in the source text.

It was my interpretation that 'pistols' was more likely a reference to revolvers and that apart from some officers not many other people would have had them in significantly memorable numbers for the source to comment on their use in that way. It's potentially a non sequitur, I agree. Interestingly the use of the word 'swords' is not necessarily literally indicative of them only being swords. EH Steward was of a generation of RE Officers who would have served through a stage in heir career when the REs had been comprehensively trained as light infantry for skirmishing purposes and had been temporarily issued with what was officially described as a 'sword' bayonet.

This particular source text includes some marvellous quotes elsewhere, but one is always left wondering how accurate it is. Bith in terms of whether Mehlokazulu was himself sufficiently knowledgeable and accurate and whether he has indeed been correctly quoted and translated.

Mehlokazulu's estimate of the size and composition of the Zulu force at Isanbdlwana is also very interesting and one really is left wondering how accurate it is, whilst also recognising that he could indeed be perfectly correct. But how?

G

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:16 pm

I have a feeling that the Royal Engineers always referred to Bayonets as Swords at this time - Although I stand to be corrected by Sapper.

Graham

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:39 pm

Galloglas,

Some, if not the majority, of the Natal Carbineers carried pistols of some description, as did the Natal Mounted Police, who I take to be Mehlokazulu's "...men dressed in black..." from one of his other renderings of his tale, given in In Zululand with the British..., which also includes the following:"...The Carbineers on entering the camp made a strong stand there, and their firing was very heavy. It was a long time before they were overcome - before we finished them. When we did get to them they died in one place all together. They threw down their guns, when their ammunition was done, and then commenced with their pistols, which they used as long as their ammunition lasted; and then they formed a line, shoulder to shoulder, and back to back, and fought with their knives. ..."

John Y.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:39 pm

Galloglas

Was he not describing the stand of the mixed force, which included NC, NMP, 24th, etc., at the foot of Black's Koppie ?

Some R.A. might have been amongst them.

Coll

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:36 pm

It's hard to form a firm or clear view. Like so many other sources most of what Meholkazulu says cannot be accurately attributed in time and place other than by arbitrarily constructing some sort of chronology and effort at estimating lsayouts and locations. Also, much of what he says has to be read carefully in the very specific context of the rest of it. Tempting though it can be to knot all this string together most theses fall aprt sooner or later and some of the more contrived and highly structured ones sooner than most.

G

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:04 am

The conflicting descriptions of sword bayonets would cetainly be compounded by the actual pattern of bayonet available to each corp.

The Snider Mk3 Carbine, in its "cavalry" form, i.e short stock had no facility for a bayonet, Pupose made versions by BSA circa 1871-73 had no bayonet lug soldered to the barrel to accept the Yataghan sword bayonet. There is an excellent article in last months Classic Arms & Militaria magazine with ref to the Snider Carbine, and it is worth getting hold of.

If the RE were drilling with the Sword Bayonet, it would have been the Yataghan, if you look on my entry in the Pot Purri section "We sloshed you with Martinis", a Yataghan is illustrated. This bayonet, whilst designed for the Snider, had a simple bush fitted in the muzzle ring and a notch to the handgrip to convert it to a Martinis' bayonet bar. It is a curved sword.

What I have not been able to appertain is if the RA at Isandlwana actually had the 2 band Snider short rifle. Later issues of this rifle was primarily for NCO Infantry use, this version is approx 150mm is shorter than 3 band rifle, it has a two thirds length stock, and a welded bayonet lug on the right hand side of the barrel. It is to large to fit into a saddle or limber bucket and must be worn with a sling.

However, the later pattern Artillery sawback bayonet, issued for the IC1 Martini Henry Artillery carbine (General issue C1880) was designed with primary function as a gun laying tool, tree cutting (the sawback) and vegetation clearance, the yataghan would do a similar job, but I find it strange to believe that a bayonet which did not fit anything would be issued in leiu of a simple sword to the artillery.

The Swinburn did also have a bayonet, dependant on the pattern. The long stock version had a bayonet lug, but to be fair the bayonet was effectively a Bowie Knife, not a sword. The Swinburn pictured in my Pot Purri section was the common short stock version and had no facility for a bayonet.

A footnote
The Yataghan was to see a new lease of life in the Sudan in the 1880's, after tough experience in the fighting at Tamaii and around Suakin, the camel corps of the Gordon releif column were issued with the yataghan for their Martini's as its penetration qualities were better when faced with an enemy armed with Hippo hide shields and chain mail.

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:58 pm

Neil,

Interesting stuff. Editions of "Regulations for the Dress and Appointments of the Corps of Royal Engineers" issued between 1857 and 1870 make repeated references to 'Sword' meaning bayont. For example: The Dress to be worn for Church Parade throuighout that period was - "Tunic; Busby with Plume; Waist belt; Cross-belt and pouch; Uniform trowsers (sic); Carbine and sword."

Until, that is, that the current Infantry rifle was also routinely issued to those REs who were at dismounted duty when the lannguage 'Rifle and Bayonet' came in with the weapon being issued. The Busby (similar to those of the King's Troop RHA, though without busby lines and with a Blue busby bag) were phased out in favour of the Home Service Helmet. RE Soldiers at Mounted Duty were usually armed with (cavalry) Swirds only, though for a period of time Drivers RE were only armed with a lighter 'Prussian' sword (the term used). However, some SNCOs and Trumpeters were routinely equipped with revolvers as well.

So, we have that intriguing mention (E Durnford) of Durnford at Isandlwana 'with his mounted orderly protecting him with drawn sword'; almost certainly a reference to 2nd Cpl N Mansfield of 7th Coy RE who would have been equipped in that way.

As to what the NC routinely carried I'll see if I can dig out my copy of Mark Coghlan's Pro Patria, but I think they had moved on from the fol de rols of swords and revolvers to at least swords and carbines by the time of their mobilisation for the 1879 campaign.

G

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:11 pm

G

I'm sure your doubts about the potential worth of Mehlokazulu's various statements are sensible. The possibilities for misunderstanding were, and are, many: any shortcomings in his own knowledge (one man's view of proceedings being often incomplete or inaccurate); his reasons for speaking, given his post-war circumstances; at what stage of the post-war period he spoke; the person to whom he spoke and the competence of that interpreter; the knowledge and understanding of the officer/journalist who received the translated statement; any (almost inevitable) alterations made at that stage; the "agenda" of the medium (military or civilian) which published or released the statement(s) and in what context; and, of course, the way in which subsequent observers, including ourselves, might view such statements in their ability to help us understand the bigger picture.

Even the clearest possible statement (to us) may contain traps for the unwary. The trouble is, we don't always know which ones, and have to (a) take them at face value and try to fit them in to help us build up the picture, or (b) try to use our own skills to evaluate them as we try to reconstruct the events of that particular day, before allocating any particular worth to them. And, as we've seen in some fascinating debates on this forum and in published works, there are inevitably many different views on the value of each.

Peter

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:05 pm

Galloglas

May I ask if you can supply any more information about Mansfield, perhaps also a portrait photograph source ?

Thankyou

Coll

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:56 pm

Just noticed that I copied out the wrong detail for Church parade dress; which should say:

"Church parade - Tunic; Busby, with plume; Waist belt; Uniform trowsers; Sword (i.e. Bayonet); Gloves.

There are several non specific references to what are almost certainly "nd Cpl Mansfield and, separately, his wife in the E Durnford Soldier in South Africa book. Cpl Mansfield became Durnford's military orderley and wagon driver and the named detail is in a latter from Durnford to his mother that mentions him by name, thoiugh I have not seen the text.

G

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:11 pm

Galloglas

Thanks for your reply.

Coll