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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:36 pm

Could anyone tell me why a lot of the books regarding the Zulu War mostly contain the same information. Do the Authors of these books read other books take what they want re-word it then publish it.
For Ex-sample I have the following books but they all contain roughly the same information.
THE SOUTH AFRICAN CAMPAIGN OF 1879 Adrian Greaves. Ian Knight
THEY FELL LIKE STONE John Young
LEGACY HEROS OF RORKE'S DRIFT Kris Wheatley
THE NOBLE 24TH Norman Holme.
Do these authors do a lot of research or just re-word and publish.
Question

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:03 pm

I think you have to stand back and realise that there is considerable amount of information about very short campaign - some 7-8 months - and the personalities involved. We are lucky that so many people have taken an interest in Anglo-Zulu war. There are many other campaigns in 19th century and even 20th century where the deeds of soldiers have largely been forgotten. I am sure that serious research could revitalise interest and ensure that the deaths are understood by unearthing the many human stories generated.

But going back to your question, Norman Holme first published his medal rolls in 1971 and then in 1979 his Silver Wreath giving details of the soldiers killed at Isandlwana and the defenders of Rorke's Drift. This was in the days before any of the other authors, including Donald Morris and the movie 'Zulu'. This meant hard raw research in the National Archives by Norman. And yet some people do not understand 'the fog of war' and expect every minute detail of a soldier's service to have recorded - and the vital piece of paper to have survived.

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:19 pm

Hi Martin
I agree we are lucky that so many people have taken an interest in the Anglo-Zulu wars and believe me I have bought many of their books.
But I just seem to be reading the same information but re-worded.
There is not a lot of difference from what Norman Holme published then to what is being published now.
How much research can be done without repeating what someone else has already researched.
Is there nothing new out there or is all that can be found. been found relating to the Anglo-Zulu Wars.
Are we going to see more books again with the same information in the future or is there un-discovered information out there.

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:49 pm

I would like to make an apology to KRIS WHEATLEY for the mis-understanding on my part and would like to ask viewers to dis-regard the books published by Kris Wheatley in my comment as I place them in the wrong Caterory
as they are in-fact Family Genealogy and not Military History.
Rest assure I will choose my words more carefully next-time.

PS Don't get on the wrong side of KRIS WHEATLEY or like me you will learn the hard way.

Embarassed

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:42 pm

Peter,

My book was entitled They Fell Like Stones, if it were 'Stone' then it wouldn't be very much of a tome would it?

I wrote that book over 17 years ago, and in my opinion it needs a revamp because my research has moved on since then, as has my style of writing.

I haven't read The Review of the South African Campaign, so I can't comment on it. I have read, and re-read over and over again The South African Campaign by MacKinnon & Shadbolt, in its 1880 original form, and I am still learning from it.

MacKinnon & Shadbolt wrote solely about officer casualties, I did not. Holme confined himself to the 24th Regiment, again I did not. Apart from the obvious - officer casualties & 24th details - please explain the similarities you find between their works and mine?

If you seek similarities look at Alan Lloyd & David Clammer, both published in 1973, almost the same format from different publishers.

Many books in the field of the Anglo-Zulu War have similar format or story to tell, a number spring readily to mind and you can compare them like for like. Yet you haven't cited them in your effort to name & shame. So why does your finkle-finger of fate point to my name?

Worse still there are some books actually have the same text but under a different title just to confuse the reader, but may be you haven't spotted those ones as yet?

I can think of one book that has appeared in four different versions before the end(?) result has been reached, the work in question is Laband & Thompson's Field Guide..., now The Illustrated Guide to the Anglo-Zulu War. Why? You might ask. Because their research and findings moved on.

There is undiscovered material out there on the Anglo-Zulu War, but you appear to have made a discovery yourself as you refer to the campaign of 1879 in the plural, please enlighten me on the Anglo-Zulu Wars? I'm waiting to find out more.

John Y.

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:13 pm

Martin,
If Holme published his research in 1971 and 1979, that was well after both "Zulu" (1964, based on an article published in 1958) and Morris (1965). Or have I misunderstood something? Did he conduct his research long before publication?
Sheldon

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:37 pm

, The trouble with "new " books on the Anglo Zulu war of 1879 is trying to find new material not published before , even with established authors i find the same mistakes reprinted in another version we are asked to pay up to � 30 or more in some cases , yes a great deal of research goes into each and every book and i have a book in me , just when i will produce it only the Gods can determine . I find more fascinating to read are the lives of these men and women AFTER the war of 1879. Even in 2008 i am reading that FRED HITCH VC had 6 children when research has proven there were 11 , 8 survived into adulthood , 3 died of various childhood illnesses and so on .

We know there were 11 VCs given to the names we know so well but how can you write about it in a different light or come up with different or new facts ? . If i see something published about a certain person i try and confirm it to my own satisfaction and if something is printed in error i hope the author can accept a mistake has been raised , this is not a slur on any author but a comment on errors printed and reproduced time and time again , Are you causing a whirlpool by bringing this to peoples attention or merely trying to get as accurate as possible the CORRECT facts ? .

In one publication it indicates A : Dunne as having been a recipient of a VC when diligent research and knowledge shows this not to be the case. Each time i get a set of service papers i " comb " over them many times and write down what is shown on these papers , i then compare these notes against what has been printed in so many books before , mistakes continue to be made and i make as many as the next person , i try and ask relevant questions if in doubt as i don`t have some of the resources available to other reseachers or authors . If some blatant error is published i fully expect the calibre of people on this site to highlight such .

That wonderful 2 volumes showing all recipients ( at time of publishing ) of the VC took 40 years or so to put together , a lifetimes endeavour . I have many miles to travel before i can say i am a fully fledged researcher and if toes have been inadvertently trod on it was not with malice believe me .

All i ask is that when the next book is published of this genre can it be a little more accurate than it`s predecessor , thank you , " Sapper " Wink

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:56 pm

Thanks for your comments I will be carefull what I say because there is someone who in my opinion has a far superior knowledge on this subject than most of us. I was thinking if we could wind the clock back to 22nd January 1879 put Khris Wheatley in command at Isandhlwana those Zulus would have run the otherway.

Anyway John I can see I have hit a raw nerve with you has well.
I never stated I had new material I was asking is there is any new information. I have your book in my collection as I have stated on the old rorkesdrift forum. What I'm trying to say is that most of the books I have on this subject contain the the same information (Except for Kris Wheatleys which is Family Genealogy Laughing

) or are we running out of material.
I did not feel in necessary to name all concerned it would take to long.
The finger of fate as you call it was not pointed at you. I was just making a point. Your book without doubt is in many homes of those interested in this subject.

Sapper Mason you say you are interested in lives of these men and women after the war. I recommend the 5 volumes Legacy Heroes of Rorke's Drift. You will be Fascinated belive me.

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:32 am

Sheldon,

What I wanted to say that Norman Holme started his research some 30 years before Zulu.

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:23 pm

May I say, as an amateur with no pretensions to erudition in the Zulu Wars, I read all the books I can, and yes they contain essentially the same material - how could it be otherwise? What interests me in reading the story over and over is the different approach each writer exhibits. I found Colonel Snook's book on Isandlwana fascinating because of his totally different approach and impressively logical way of looking at the evidence. Others appeal in different ways. After all, we know that we could each tell the same anecdote and impress some and not others - "it's the way you tell 'em!" I'll go on reading the same story whenever a new version comes out, I know; and although it may contain little or no new material, it will have its own distinctive appeal

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:54 pm

Tony

You do have a point, especially when you consider all the books about the Alamo or LBH, with much the same information involved in all, but different versions and approaches used.

Although I have read many books on the Zulu War 1879, with several chapters and titles dealing with Isandlwana, I still await the next book about that specific battle being released.

Some would say that is too much, but I think not.

I'd also really like to see a new book, much like Droogleever's, with what amounts to be a more detailed (if possible) biography of Col. D.

I'm sure new titles, along the same lines as others that have gone before, with always appear.

The more the better I say. Wink

Coll

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:12 pm

Coll,
any idea what the following extract from the Zulu Dawn script means?

Chelmsford
There is a Mrs. Dumford, is there?
15

BARTLE Frere
She exists.. .but er. . .nothing '5 been heard of her, the
eight years
Durnford's been in Africa.

CREALOCK
Although much is spoken of her now, My Lord.

Often wondered about that.

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:23 pm

Tony you mentioned a book by Colonel Snook on Isandlwana
What is the books title.

Regards
Pete Harman

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:35 pm

Hi/

The title is: How Can Man Die Better - (The Secrets Of Isandlwana Revealed.) Published by Greenhill Books. ISBN 1-85367-656-X

I got mine from the Museum at Brecon - they do an excellent and very prompt service!

Hope you enjoy it.

Tony.

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:27 pm

Tom

Some notes on Durnford's married status:

He was promoted Lieutenant in February 1854, and married Frances Catherine Tranchell in September of that year. This proved to be a serious mistake which he later had cause to regret. He twice tried to find active service, in 1855 in the Crimea and in 1864 in China, but was denied on both occasions by illness. His domestic affairs also deteriorated: he lost an infant son in 1856 and only four years later he suffered the loss of a daughter. These events added to the strains on his relationship with his wife, from whom he then separated. Divorce was, for an officer at that time, unacceptable, and he left for a four-year posting in Gibraltar at the end of the 1860, during the last year of which he was promoted to captain. Following his return in 1864, the next seven years saw him in both the United Kingdom and Ireland but his restless nature demanded action. He volunteered for service in South Africa and reached the Cape in January 1872. He found some sort of fulfilment here and travelled around the country a great deal, being promoted to major in July 1872.

KIS