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melvill and coghill painting
smithart101


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Dorset UK
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Hi everyone,
heres my Melvill and Coghill painting. Your comments are welcome!
Simon





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Simon

Another wonderful painting.

The flag half-cased, half-uncased is well done, and does capture the awkwardness of carrying it. I don't know how Melvill managed.

Mt. Isandlwana in the background gives a good idea of location on the Fugitives' Trail.

There might be mention that Melvill and Coghill weren't together when leaving the camp, but that is a small matter, which doesn't deflect from how dramatic the painting is.

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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Simon

A wonderful picture which expresses the awful nature of their (separate) rides down the Fugitives' Trail. I hesitate to point out, therefore, that it was not the Union Colour which was lost but the Queen's Colour showing the battalion's battle honours. These are clearly shown on the original Colour, which now flies in a plastic case in the cathedral at Brecon.

KIS
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Simon,

Lose the rank insignia on Coghill's collar. Only officers of Field Rank and above wore their ranks on the collar of the patrol jacket.

Other than that another fine piece with some artistic licence in having them together. WELL DONE!

Keith,

The Queen's colour, of a similiar size ('...four feet flying, and three feet six inches on the pole...') and fringed, had simply XXIV surmounted by the crown.' Source page 368 Historical Records of the 24th Regiment, I think you're confusing the Regiment colour with Queen's colour which was indeed the Union Flag.

Judging by the 1892 photograph, which sadly does show too much, there are no obvious battle honours on the Queen's colour. I have a booklet produced for the 1934 Laying Up of the Colours, again I don't see any obvious battle honours on what was by then the King's colour. That said I have a 1934 report on the occasion which states '...while on the King's Colour (so carefully sewn to that worn silk), the sterner "Mons" and "Marne" and "Ypres"... '

John Y.
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Melanie


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 23
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Outstanding Painting Smile
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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John,

There were no honours on the 1866 Queen's Colour of 1/24th in 1879. The 10 selected Honours which were later emblazoned were from WW1. The 1/24th Colours were 'retired' in 1933.

I am not sure about the use of swords, but I am sure Col Mike Snook will give view on this. Coghill's sword survives and is with 2nd Battalion The Royal Welsh.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Works of Art.
TonyJones


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Essex
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Dear Simon,
that painting is superb. I did write to Cranston Fine Arts once and asked then to pass a letter on to Steve Liptrot the bloke who painted the excellent image of 593 Private William Jones VC with a view to maybe creating a some fresh views of my ancestor but unfortunetly there was no reply which to me seems questionable from a business point of view ( as a former employer and director of a company) but never mind.

Tony Jones.
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smithart101


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Dorset UK
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thanks to all of you who have taken the trouble to comment so far, always appreciated.
Tony, there will be a hospital scene from Rorke's Drift featuring your relative and the other VC winners in the near future
regards

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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Dear Martin,

I take it you are concurring with my remarks which I made to Keith? Who is the one under the misapprehension that the Queen's Colour bore battle honours in 1879, and that it only bears "the sterner" WW1 battle honours as I mentioned from the 1934 article regarding the Laying Up at Brecon Cathedral, on Easter Sunday, 1st April, 1934. Having been retired in Hong Kong on 28th March 1933 when the new Colours were presented by Sir William Peel, Governor of Hong Kong.

John Y.
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Simon,

A quick point on the cuff detail of the Infantry Pattern Patrol Jacket it should look like these:





John Y.
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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John/Martin

Thanks for putting me right, gents. Did I take a photograph of the wrong colour when I was in Brecon several years ago? That clearly shows the large 'XXIV' at centre, with five battle honours (illegible on my photo).

KIS
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Hospital Scene.
TonyJones


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Essex
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Dear Simon,
have you started the hospital battle scene painting yet. It will be interesting to see it to say the least. Can't wait.

Tony Jones.
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 784
Location: Brecon
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Keith,

Each battalion had two Colours - the senior - The Queen's Colour (or Sovereign's or Union Colour) and the Regimental Colour (background Colour in the 'Facing' Colour of the Regimental with a small union in the upper left corner - in case of the 24th grass or willow green - 'Facing' = colour of cuffs and collars on men's tunics). Only the Queen's Colour of 1/24th was at Isandlwana - the Regimental Colour being left with the 2 companies 1/24th based at Helpmekaar.

These Colours were presented to the 1/24th in 1866. The regiment's battle honours were emblazoned on the regimental colour. These Colours remained in service until 1933. During that period of service the regiment received further honours - including 'South Africa 1877-8-9' - and 'Busaco' and the Marlborough honours - 'Blenhiem', 'Ramillies', 'Oudenarde' and 'Malplaquet' - only approved many years after events. These were added to the Regimental Colour.

During WW1 the South Wales Borderers qualified for 74 honours, clearly these could not be added to the Regimental Colour - so in common with other regiments - 10 honours were selected - and emblazoned on the Queen's (now King's) Colour of the 1/24th - the one saved by Melvill and Coghill. The silk fringe on edge of the Colours reflect the background colour, i.e. Queen's Colour - red/gold (the painting is incorrect) and Regimental - green/gold.

What confuses most students of the AZW is that the famous paintings of the scenes of Isandlwana show the wrong colour (all show the Regimental Colour) - Fripp's 'The last Stand at Isandlwana' and de Neuville's 'Saving the Colours' and 'Sleep of the Brave'. de Neuville's choice of title 'Saving the Colours' - suggesting two colours is often reflected by battlefield guides who incorrectly refer to the 'Queen's Colours'. Only one Colour. Fripp could be forgiven as BOTH colours of 2/24th were at Isandlwana and were lost (so the colour in the painting could be 2/24th Regimental Colour). Only a Crown (or Crest) and part of a pike from 2/24th Colours were later found - these relics are also in the Regimental Chapel in Brecon Cathedral.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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smithart101


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Dorset UK
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Martin,
thanks for the information. What proportion or mix of red and gold should the fringe be? Alternate strands of red/gold?
Would the 2/24th colours be carried into battle at Isandlwana or would they have been stored at the headquarters tent?
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take heart
clive dickens


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 162
Location: REDDITCH WORCESTERSHIRE
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Simon
Take heart from the fact that some of the greatest artists of Victorian times got a few things wrong too. Mistakes aside your painting on the whole is very good indeed.
All the very best to you
Clive Wink
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melvill and coghill painting
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