rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - Sharps Rifle Compared To The Martini Henry

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:58 pm

I've been quite often looking around various sites on firearms from the 19th Century and this rifle caught my eye, although it appears to have several variants.

There seems to be a version of this rifle, because of its power and distance, was used to hunt buffalo.

How does it compare to the Martini Henry, as I think a version of the Sharps may have been used by most of the sharpshooters on both sides during the ACW ?

Also, could several of these rifles have made their way to Africa owned by adventurers or big game hunters, who understood the benefits of distance shooting, as well as the types of repeating rifles available around then ?

Coll

PS. I think this was the rifle used by Burt Lancaster's character in 'Valdez is Coming', apparently his character having used it against the Apaches (pre-ACW perhaps ?).

However, the accuracy of this film I know not.

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:11 am

Good questions, Coll! My understanding is that the word "Sharps" refers as much to a firearm style as it does to a particular gun. I think the Sharps action is correctly classed as a "drop block" as the breech block drops straight down, while the Martini-Henry had an action classed as a "rolling" block, as there was a backward movement as well as a downward movement of the block. Both actions are very, very strong and I can't wait to read some of the responses when I say that the most powerful firearms ever produced were (and still are) a derivative of either one of these two actions. OK, the Mauser is the most solidly breeched bolt-action rifle ever designed and built, but if an elephant were 50 feet from me at full charge and I had time for just a single shot, give me a Sharps or a Martini action rifle!
My point being? That both the Sharps of Civil War vintage and the Martini-Henry of the AZW were both simply high profile examples of firearm evolution and both styles (and I stress the word "styles") still exist today at the extreme high end of "stopping power" purpose built rifles.
The "Sharps" buffalo guns you probably refer to are later, higher caliber versions of the CW rifle. I've an old cartridge (1880's vintage) for a Sharps modification rilfe that could disable an MBT at close range , but no quartermaster in the 1860's could have identified it ("it" being the bullet and the MBT!)
Paranthetically, anybody know where the word "sharpshooter" came from?

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:28 pm

Sawubona

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I've been looking around to get an idea of what types of firearms may have made their way over to Africa before the AZW, and although I'm not too sure about 19th Century weapons, the names of some did stay in my mind, learned from films, documentaries, etc.

Regarding the AZW itself, the battles, uniforms, units, participants, etc., I've got numerous books, well-illustrated and with greatly detailed chapters.

However, apart from knowing the basics (names of weapons), and being able to identify the more well-known Martini Henry carbines and rifles - the rest - Colonial, N.N.H. and other European makes - I'm at a loss with.

The Sharps I remembered being popular, but hadn't been aware just how many variants there were, other than being used in the A.C.W. and for hunting buffalo. Funnily enough, one of the sites answered one of my questions above, by saying that Sharps rifles were carried by many a 19th Century adventurer. I've still to find a site that confirms that Sharps rifles could be supplied with a rest, being perhaps a metal(?) rod, with a U-shaped attachment on the top, on which you could place the barrel.

I'm still looking for the type of Snider discussed in the old forum, which had a metal ring near the trigger, very interestingly thought to be a possible attachment for a chain linking the gun to a convict guard's belt.

Others of interest to me at the moment are the Coach Gun (shotgun) and the Winchester lever-action shotgun (1887 - but there may be an earlier version), as well as repeating rifles such as the Henry and Winchester.

Revolvers such as the Adams and Tranter appeared to be popular amongst officers, but I'm keen to find others of similar appeal. I'm still not convinced that Col. Durnford used an American Colt.

My aim, is to try and build up a firearms list, of both definites (being issued to the forces) and others that may have been owned by civilians amongst the columns, or at least could be included due to their availability around the time of the campaign.

Thanks again

Coll

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:24 pm

Coll,

The British Army did test the Sharps carbine in two calibres (.577" & .551") from 1858. Some five cavalry regiments received it. These carbines were "capping breech loaders", where a nitrated paper carttridge with bullet was placed in the breech, the top of the block sliced off the rear of the cartridge on closing and then a percussion primer was used to fire the charge. In the case of these carbines the priming used a system called a "Maynards tape primer" - a bit like child's cap tapes for "toy" guns today. Although they were fairly successful, it was a British manufacturer's capping breech loader that was adopted - Westley Richards - although that was fairly promptly superceded by the Snider carbine.

When the trials took place that led to the adoption of the Martini, the Sharps wasn't entered. I belive this was because even though it had progressed to a self contained cartridge system, and as Sawubona says, it could handle the very most impressive of big game rounds, it still required that the hammer be brought to full cock by a separate movement. This meant it was fractionally slower in operation than the MHR - though having previously owned and shot with Sharps (capping breech loader and a .45/70) I think this is a pretty finely judged point...!

I think you are right in believing that a wide range of different rifles, including Sharps, would have been present in Southern Africa in the 1870s. To the Sharps I would add the Westley Richards, Sniders, Enfield P53s, any number of muzzle loading muskets by commercial firms in UK, USA - inc Springfields - and Europe - Chassepot actions and perhaps even Dreyse needle actions, Werndls etc , and Webley revolvers. The list of possibilites would be a long one indeed.

For references, books like WW Greeners "The gun & its development", the various period British military Treatises on Small arms and ammunition and more modern works such as George Markham's "Guns of the Empire" provide a fair bit of info, and often come up secondhand on abe.com

Sawubona, my guess is that "Sharpshooter" has an American origin, the UK military term tends to be "Marksman". This was certainly the term used in musketry qualification and competition, but I expect there were units whose titles included the word "Sharpshooters" - I just can't think of any right now!

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:55 pm

Coll
If its anything to go by, I outshot 2 memebers on the range who were shooting sharps, with creedmore peep sights at 200 yards with my 1875 Mk2 over the good old militarysights.
That lead to one of two conclusions, either I was a better shot with a Martini, or more likely that 5th pint from the night before had took its tolls!

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:09 am

The earliest reference to "sharpshooter" that I found is as an 1802 translation of the German "Scharfsch�tze". I can't help but think that I've read it in reference to the American Revolution though, that however could be a false memory or an anachronistic reference in a more modern book, or transposing it with "marksman" which I believe goes back to the middle ages, but the earliest seems to be 1802 and German.

MAB

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:46 am

All

Thanks for your replies.

I assumed the idea that the term sharpshooters did come from the use of this weapon, as I'm not sure when a man specifically selected for his shooting skills (marksman, sniper, etc.) became commonplace within a unit or company.

When I asked about the term 'sniper' in the old forum in regards to the British soldiers during the AZW, it doesn't appear to be a role that was selected for individuals, although it was mentioned about a few accounts, that men with marksmanship skills, did indeed take the more difficult shots.

I'm sure I seen a unit(s) called Sharpshooters, this title following the name of the unit commander in the ACW, but whether just a unit title or because they were all expert marksmen, I know not.

Coll

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:16 pm

Interesting! I just went searching and learned that "sniper" was a word first used (according to the OED) in 1773 to describe one who shoots snipe in India "from a hidden place". "Sharpshooter" is a translation of the German Scharfsch�tze and was used in 1802. Now if I can only track down why the Germans would call an expert rifleman a Scharfshutze, I've got it knocked! It seems the question of its derivation remains, just the language has changed.

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:06 pm

Coll, there were Sharpshooter units in the US Civil War. See:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/sharpshooter.htm

MAB

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:52 pm

nice cite there Mike on the sharpshooters...any idea if the British army in '79 had these fellows and if they ever were in SA?

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:25 pm

Michael

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the sharpshooters always acted as individuals within a company, or indeed were formed into units.

I've been making a list of 19th Century firearms book titles, which I hope to obtain, covering many makes - revolvers, carbines and rifles.

Coll

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:58 pm

Hi All,

Sharpshooters, ...lost in translation maybe ?

In 1702, the Duke of Saxe-Weimar had established a company of Garde zu Fu�, and a second company was added in 1714. The unit was expanded to a regiment in 1729. By 1790, the unit was no longer known as the Garde zu Fu�, or even as a regiment, but was called the Scharfsch�tzen-Bataillon ("Sharpshooters Battalion"), and had a strength of 600 men in four companies. In 1796, the battalion, as part of the Hessian Corps, served in the fighting between France and Austria.

German-English translations for "scharf":

hot, acute, edged, acrid, acridly, keen, poignant, poignantly, pungent, pungently, sharp, sharply, strident, tangy, trenchant, twangy, subtle, spicy

Both Napoleon and Wellington had 'Sharpshooters' in their line-ups.

Napoleon as early as the late 18thC, although I don't know the French that has been translated from. I thought that his 'Carabiniers' were regarded as shrpshooters ? He had a 10th Regiment of 'Sharpshooters' as well.
He had a medal struck commemorating the Battle of Lodi depicting these Sharpshooters.
http://fortiter.napoleonicmedals.org/medals/history/5battles.htm

Wellington's Rifle Brigades were known to be 'Sharpshooters'.

There's a book published; Wellington's Rifles: Six Years to Waterloo with England's Legendary Sharpshooters

Oberst/Colonel Hugh Halkett of the Hanoverians (actually Osnabrucks)wrote in his memoirs "After receiving our fire with much effect, the (French) column [Sic] left their General with two officers behind when I ordered the sharpshooters to dash on and I made a gallop for the General (Cambronne)."

In Tolstoy's War and Peace, Kutuzov is furious when he finds out his 'sharpshooters' have been ordered to change position and he sends Prince Andrey to check.
Again I don't know what Russian term would have been used in the original.

The Sharps was only patented in the 1840's, although the US troops around the Civil War might on occasion have been thought of as 'Sharps-shooters', who knows ?
They certainly used them to good effect.
cheers,
Sean

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:41 am

Good back-story Sean!

I found this interesting tid-bit at :

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=082704brit

"Under any circumstances, the marksmanship in most regiments was poor. Scant mention is made of target practice, and the inference is that there was little of it. It has been claimed that the soldiers did not aim at anything in particular. This probably accounts for the saying that it took a man's weight in bullets to kill him. An American who was taken prisoner by the 42nd Highlanders during the assault on Fort Washington in 1776 relates: "Not less than ten guns were discharged with their muzzles toward us, within forty or fifty yards, and some were let off within twenty...I observed that they took no aim, and the moment of presenting and firing was the same." These conditions gave rise to the sharpshooter, a man who not merely aimed his musket, but aimed it at something or somebody. During the campaign of 1777, Burgoyne formed a body of sharpshooters by selecting a group of sober, active, robust men from each regiment. Officers trained in the school of European warfare, however, were prone to place more reliance upon the bayonet than upon the bullet. Burgoyne in particular urged his men to use the bayonet: "Men of half [your] bodily strength and even Cowards may be [your] match in firing; but the onset of Bayonets in the hands of the Valiant is irresistible...It will be our glory and preservation to storm where possible.""

Here the term 'sharpshooter' would seem to be used in it's broadest modern sense but I wonder what "Gentleman Johnny" called his newly formed unit in 1877.

Rich as far as in 1879 the closest I can come up with is the nick name of the 95th Regiment - Manningham's Sharpshooters, but I'm not sure when that nickname took effect. The first semi-official designation seems to be in 1901 with the 4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters) although the 'sharpshooter' seems to have been added later.

Coll I found a reasonably good book on the history of British Army sidearms but I don't have it with me and I can't remember the name, Ill let you know whenever I get back home.

For now I have to get back to work. (It's good to be the boss but I don't want to push it!)

Best

Michael

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:26 am

Back to the original question. It is hard to compare the Martini-Henry with the Sharps rifle unless the question itself is narrowed down a bit.

The Martini-Henry of 1879 came in one caliber 45/577 whereas the Sharps came in a very wide variety including 45/70, 45/90, 45/100 and the massive 45/110 as well as 50/90. It should also be noted the caliber designation for the Martini referred to bullet diameter - .45 � and chamber diameter of .577. The Sharps caliber designation refers to the bullet diameter - .45 or .50 � and the case powder capacity in grains 70, 90, 100 and 110. Since the Martini case held 85 grains of black powder. With this in mind then perhaps the Sharps 45/90 was the closet to the Martini ballistic standpoint.

It is also important to note that by 1879 all of the above mentioned Sharps rifles were commercial firearms � the U.S. Army having adopted the 1873 Springfield Rifle in 45/70 caliber as standard in 1873.

I don�t think it would be fair � and apples and oranges sort of thing � to compare the Martini with some of the high capacity/long range Sharps rifles since they were designed with to completely different purposes in mind. One was mid-ranged warfare � the Martini was most effective at around 400 yards � and long-range commercial hunting.

I often wonder myself if any long forgotten Tommy while firing at Zulus or Afghans ever matched the incredible shot made by buffalo hunter and Medal of Honor winner Billy Dixon at the Adobe Walls Fight in 1874. Billy, using a Sharps �Big Fifty� (50/110) dropped a taunting Comanche warrior at the amazing confirmed range of 1563 yards.

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:04 pm

In a sniping-related book that I used to have, there was a piece of writing about 5 lines in total at the front, which read -

'There is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.'
Ernest Hemingway

Coll