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Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 437
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Chiba2000
Because Adrian says it took 25 shots to kill one Zulu, it does not mean he was right. In fact there is no supporting evidence for such a remark.
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Haydn Jones


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Gloucester
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Having only ever squeezed the trigger of an air rifle at a fairground stall (and even then coming home empty handed Embarassed ) I must say that I've found the technical stuff about the MH going down on this thread really interesting.

I hope this isn't a stupid question that will have you experts rolling about on the floor laughing but I've been wondering if having the bayonet fixed affects the balance of the weapon to the extent that it's accuracy is impaired? If so, how does one compensate for the imbalance (apart from removing the bayonet, of course!)? I suppose what I'm really asking is, can you still shoot (as) straight with bayonet fixed?

I guess, by implication, having bayonets fixed means the enemy are at close range anyway so my question may not even be an issue but this total novice would appreciate the thoughts of you "top guns" out there all the same. Thanks.

H
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Haydn

The MH is beautifully balanced and one barely notices its weight. The shooting men will give you a much more scientific answer but I own both a MH and bayonet and I cannot feel any significant difference, when the bayonet is fitted.

What one must bear in mind always is that this is not a rifle designed for target shooting, so I don't think bayonets fixed/unfixed is even an issue. The aim is to get lead in the air and dominate the enemy as much as by psychological effect as actual casualties. I think a lot of people forget just how frightening it is to be shot at. Imagine, if you will, standing upright 300 yards from 80 men who will all fire their rifles at the same time in the next three or four seconds. What are you going to do? This is not a computer game and you can't come back to life if you get it wrong. This is for real. One time only decisions. So:

Your options are:

a. run away
b. take cover
c. charge like a madman and hope for the best.

You can't do a. because you are a Zulu (or a Welshman in your case) and that is not an option (for either breed!).
If you do c. you stand a good chance of dying. If however you do c. and live, you will observe that a whole lot of other men who also did c. did not share in your good fortune.

You are now at 320 yards and those boys in red are going to do it again.
b. or c. The choice is yours.

If you took c. because you were with a whole bunch of good mates that you trained with, well I regret to tell you that half your mates are now dead. You are now at 240 yards. b. or c. The choice is yours.

You are a particualrly tough nut Haydn, and you are now at 160 yards. But my friend, you should have taken the hint, because you are now flat on your back in excruciating pain and all that gooey stuff you can feel splattered over your face should really be safely tucked away inside your stomach. You have about 20 seconds to live. Make the most of it.

That's how volley fire from the British infantry of the high Victorian era worked. At some stage everybody will do c. After a while you will begin considering a. despite all that tough nut talk round the camp fires at Ulundi.

That's not just to do with your specific point on bayonets Haydn, but I think addresses other posts under this topic too.

Regards

Mike
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spikesmith


Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 13
Location: North Somerset
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Mike's comment about the balance of the MHR are quite correct. It's a beautiful weapon to hold (in as much as something designed to kill can merit such an epithet). Fitting the bayonet does affect the balance somewhat - it can't really do otherwise - and, if the objective were to be target shooting, it would probably make a difference. However, the objective was to position, aim, fire, reload, position, aim, fire, etc. All carried out in rapid succession and possibly while changing from a kneeling to a standing position and back again so the finer points of change of balance on a marksman aiming for pinpoint accuracy probably wouldn't have entered into the equation. Such a marksman - should such have existed - would probably have been using a wall, tree or other solid object as a steadying aid and - I would conjecture - wouldn't have the bayonet (certainly one of the socket models) fitted as it reduces the amount of foresight visible.
Going back a couple of posts - I think we should take Adrian's bullet:Zulu ratio more-or-less on trust. After all, there are some things that just should never be subjected to empirical testing!

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Spike
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Rich
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So Mike...what do you think? Did the Zulu really need the "snuff" to attack the British lines at Isandhlwana?? With the way you describe the Zulu attack makes me wonder how anybody would charge in open daylight against 80 men with MHR firepower without anything other than blood coursing through their veins. Zulu or no Zulu anyone charged with that deed can't be faulted for er maybe having dead legs or a hysterical case of paralysis coming on when looking out out along the plain...
Adrian Whiting


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Dorset, England
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Haydn,

In my experience of target shooting with a MHR fixing the "lunger" socket bayonet (or any other bayonet for that matter) does affect the mean point of impact (MPI) of the rounds then fired. In comparison with shooting, bayonet unfixed, the group tends to fall lower and, in my case, a little to the left.

The drop in MPI is reasonably predictable, as, all other things being equal, the mass of the bayonet will add to the inertia of the rifle as a whole, and slow down the rise due to recoil. Even though this is a relatively marginal increase in weight, the effect can be observed as close as 100 yards range.

However, at ranges of 300 yards or less, I doubt it had much actual impact on the effectiveness of fire - as Mike rightly points out, the battlefield and the range are entirely different environments. It may have had an effect at much longer ranges, but the doctrine at the time was to fire, bayonets unfixed, until the enemy were relatively close.

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Hope this assists,
Adrian
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Well, to put in a layman (should that be laywoman's?) terms, I had the privilege of firing a M H rifle with and without a bayonet. Now, I'm a woman and not trained iin rifle shooting but I do weights at the gym. When I fired that rifle with the bayonet on, I definitely felt the difference in that it took far more muscle power to bring up that muzzle than before and the shots were lower. I was relieved when the bayonet came off.

Obviously I should up the weights I'm lifting at the gym!

And Mike, like any woman, I'd probably chose b and leave you guys to do c! Laughing

Dawn
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Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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My goodness that was a lovely way of putting it Mike! No sarcasm, I mean, really... (I get emotional ever so often, like when reading Vitai Lampada, and that was lovely!)

It really does make you think of the human consequences and psychology (particularly for someone as divorced from that reality as I)...

There's something I read though in this book about killing, the History of Killing or The Psychology of Killing, the title escapes me. Fixing bayonets was as much a psychological as a defensive measure. Even in movies when they give the command FIX - BAYONETS it sends a chill down your spine. In the language of The Godfather 'it's time to go to the mattresses'. Your blood pressure rises and adrenaline is pumping like crazy. That should give you some boost for the first few shots - and they were probably in lots better physical condition than I am (hehehe). It blinds you, it focuses you, those magic words which mean that death and destiny may be moments away and your cold steel is all that stands between the two.

However, from experience, adrenaline is one of things that goes up and must come down and when it comes down it is draining. I don't know how but somewhere along the way it's got to slacken off...

I'll re-read that chapter again later.

Best wishes all,

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Tom "Harlechman"
Zulu Total War Team,
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spikesmith


Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 13
Location: North Somerset
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I've only ever fixed bayonets on exercise and, these days, with the greater autonomy of individual fighting personnel - as opposed to the massed volleys and repulses of previous eras - the chances of hearing the order 'Fix...Bayonets!' is unlikely ever to be heard again outside of a drill square. The option to fight with bayonet attached is more likely to be a decision made at individual , section or fire-team level - and to be whispered or signalled, rather than yelled - but, even so, It still sends a frisson through the body. It's a sort of final 'Oh Sh1t!' moment

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Spike
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Spike

Depends whether the attack is silent or noisy. If its noisy (for the benefit of non-mil contributors 'noisy' is when the artillery are softening up the en position) any company commander worth his salt, will give the order to fix bayonets. Because as you so rightly say - it dudn't 'arf make the point!!

Regards

Mike
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Haydn Jones


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Gloucester
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Thanks chaps (and chappesses in the case of Dawn! Keep pumping that iron!). Helpful replies, I'm grateful. Your expertise is to be applauded. Just a brief response to Mike Snook2 if I may;

Mike

I understand your point. I was a little uncomfortable with this thread but while it may not have been a topic on which I personally wished to contribute, I was, nevertheless, gripped by the technical aspects of the MH as the discussion developed. That is why I was careful to word my question in that way.

I've not served in the military, or experienced the horror of war, yet I would like to think I am old enough and wise enough to recognise that it can be nothing like a computer game (which is why I won't be contributing on the new, perfectly legitimate but not my cup of tea, "game" thread). (No offence to you "gaming" fans intended!)

Hope this clarifies where I was "coming from".

Enjoyed both of your books by the way. Undoubtedly some food for thought and a change to see events through the eyes of the military.

H
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Haydn

Thanks for kind words on books.

The post above was more of a general reply on the wider topic really, rather than on the specifics of bayonets fixed, and you've got some expert coverage from the other chaps on that. The substance of my remarks rests in the fact that its weight of fire and psychological effect that really matters, rather than woops my mean point of impact (MPI) has dropped a bit low left, with a bayonet. I think it would have no real impact on a battlefield - and as Adrian said the drill was (generally) to fire without bayonets, until the company commanders thought, hmmmm...this is getting a bit sticky!! Fix Bayonets!! I would say they would do that if an enemy rush still a very obvious head of steam up at about 200 yards - just to be to be on the safe side. But most attacks into the fields of fire of a MH armed company would stall at between 200 and 300. Its hard to stay alive at that range.

Regards as ever

PS. Yep - don't know what they're on, but they're having a wail of a time!! Like you I shall be sticking to more conventional threads!!

Mike
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Coll
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Anything to do with the AZW interests me greatly, especially if it breaks the blandness of my environment.

Coll

PS. I am of course referring to my participation in the Games Forum.


Last edited by Coll on Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:34 am; edited 3 times in total
Haydn Jones


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Gloucester
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Mike

Understood (& thanks).

As my parting shot on this thread, if you'll forgive the pun, I was particularily struck by the deftness with which the MH could be reloaded while fighting at the wall (as described in Like Wolves... p65).

H
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