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Smith (break-open) Carbine
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Whilst browsing through my Gettysburg book, especially at the colour uniform plates, I noticed one soldier with a break-open firearm, termed a Smith carbine, which interested me, due to this loading method.

I've read a bit about it on the net, but wondered if anyone has handled this weapon, knowing of its power and accuracy ?

Thanks

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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Only handled, never fired, Coll. I've read that they're as accurate as they needed to be, but notorious for gas leakage at the breech when firing-- at best disconcerting to the shooter! The fact that they could be loaded with loose powder and ball as well as cartridges made them a popular arm with the Confederates.

You might be interested in bidding on a Trapdoor Springfield carbine that's going for auction at Amoskeag next weekend, Coll. It was surrendered to Government Agents a month after the Battle at the Little Bighorn by Yellow Bear who was wounded at said battle. The pre-auction estimate is only $50,000-$75,000. I won't be surprised however if it ends up a bit higher at the gavel.
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Sawubona

Thanks for your reply.

As for the Springfield carbine, I wonder if it was tested against cartridge casings recovered from the LBH battlefield.

I also reckon it should make much more than quoted.

I would have liked to own any of the revolvers taken at Isandlwana, with a proven connection to one of the participants, but it seems none were ever recovered, at least, at the time I asked.

There was a gun 'hand-in' a couple of years ago, if I remember correctly, amongst them one or two MH rifles, but I can't recall if it was verified.

As an aside, regarding LBH, I do remember the military artist Simon Smith mentioning something about painting Gen. Custer, which I'd like to see, going by his other paintings.

It'd be interesting, unlike other images, if he had him armed with his rifle, instead of the usual revolver(s), perhaps holding it in one hand whilst firing a revolver in the other.

Thanks again

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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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I'd hoped you wouldn't be offended by my ever so tongue in cheek belittling of the appraised value-- In all honesty, I consider $75,000 to be an insane amount of money, but probably a good investment and likely to be bid (plus an additional 20% buyers premium). It would be interesting to compare its "barrel signature" to that of casings from LBH indeed. If the hammer price is astronomical, I'll let you know.

Is it even known what revolvers were carried by GAC that day? I believe he was very partial to Webley RIC's (or were they Bulldogs?), but was also known to pack Colts. And I know his men were not carrying sabers that day, but I've always assumed (with no evidence fer or agin) that he and his officers were.
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What do you think of this, would it look out of place in a new film about Isandlwana, belonging to an introduced character ? -

http://www.denix.es/images/ref_701.jpg

I remember Steve McQueen using it in his western series.

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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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I'm pretty certain that's an chopped Winchester 1892 which is of course completely out of place. I can't imagine any reason that a Winchester Model '73 couldn't be altered in a similar fashion. Most of the earlier Winchesters had the added advantage that they chambered a round common with many single action Colt revolvers-- the most common being the 32-20, the 38-40, and the 44-40. The downside of that however, is that even the "biggest" of them, the .44, fires (at most) a bullet of 225 grains. That's considerably less than half the weight of a MH slug and has no where near the ability to reach out and touch someone. Carrying any Winchester in Africa seems a bit like "bringing a knife to a gunfight", be the target a charging rhino or a charging Zulu. Keeping up a supply of ammunition and maintaining any sophisticated repeater like a Spencer or a Winchester out on the Veldt wouldn't be any fun either. That's probably why, although ubiquitous in our West , one never hears of them in Africa.

I offer as an alternative (admittedly not a repeater) a MK II* Snider-Enfield that I have which has been viciously cut down in the barrel length to some 11 inches. It still has the full stock of a Snider rifle, but looks more like a modern "street sweeper" shotgun. Load that puppy with 00 shot (as was often done with Sniders) and any one in front of you had best look out. Neil could tell us better, but I'm of the opinion that this particular gun could be fired one handed in a pinch-- something I wouldn't want to try with any Teenie.
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Sawubona

Thanks for your reply.

I've a couple of Winchester books, one solely dealing with the 1873 model, which'll give me more details.

I felt that the owner opted for this shortened model, rather than a revolver, with the benefit of being able to hold it two-handed, but don't know if it'd be quicker to load.

Zulus didn't think much of revolvers - missed more than they hit.

I recall Adrian mentioning the Snider being loaded with shot, for a convict model if I'm correct, details of one appearing with a metal ring attachment, considered, judging by its position, for a belt chain, to prevent it being wrestled from the guard by a prisoner.

Thanks again

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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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In fact, both the typical MH and the typical Snider can chamber and fire a shot shell of the proper design (I think it's a 24 gauge -- kind of an odd gauge today) . I can't speak for the Snider, but one sees about "WD" stamped shotgun rounds for the Martini. I believe it fired 11 or 13 pieces of 00 buck-- each one a nasty chunk of lead big enough to incapacitate most North American game animals and certainly enough to make an enemy reconsider the advisability of his current goal! Both the Teenie and the Snider were altered in their declining years to smooth bores exclusively for shotshell use, but even the off-the-shelf rifled versions weren't too shabby throwing buckshot- particularly the Snider with its less pronounced rifling.

Regarding handguns , there's a maxim in the military to the effect that the purpose of a pistol is to allow you to fight your way back to the rifle that shouldn't have dropped in the first place!

Completely off the thread yet perhaps of interest to you-- I was reading recently that the .45/70 Trapdoor carbine originally fired a copper hulled bullet, but as that was found to jam far too often after extended use, brass was eventually substituted-- AFTER the LBH!
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Sawubona

Regarding the last sentence in your post.

Always the same, isn't it, people waiting until a certain substance hits the fan, for them to stop sitting on their hands and do something about it.

Doesn't help those who fell on the battlefield(s) prior to the 'powers that be' making a decision to improve equipment.

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There is an interesting topic in the weapons section of the VWF, by a chap who has acquired a Colt 1850s revolver, plus shoulder holster, which appears to have been owned by someone who served in South Africa.

What are the chances this is the 'mythical Colt' Col. D. is rumoured to have had, now making an appearance ? Shocked

No chance at all, methinks ! Sad

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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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Coll,

Why would a one-handed man, purchase a pistol that it takes two hands to load?

You can skip that idea.

John Y.
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John

I can dream can't I ? Wink

Do you happen to know where I read this ? -

"Son, if the Zulus are close enough for you to use your pistol...you are already dead'.

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Smith (break-open) Carbine
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