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Did one Zulu die twice?
Barbara Grant
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Having viewed the film yesterday evening, I thought I saw the same Zulu man die twice. It is in the sequence when they are coming over the wall and facing British soldiers hand-to-hand. The guy killed by (I think) Hitch, or at any rate a blonde-haired British soldier seems to appear a second time as one of the two Zulus going after Chard, and is subsequently killed (if memory serves) by Schiess.

Has anyone else noticed something similar, or is my memory off here?

Thank you,

Barbara
Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 551
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Hi Barbara

From my viewing, a number of the Zulu extras died several deaths!

Kind regards,

Paul

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Tough !
Sapper Mason


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 333
Location: ANGLESEY
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Laughing ,
Just goes to show you Barbara how tough these blighters were to , " finish them off ! " . Wink .
One thing not mentioned or shown in the film was when Pte Ashton approached Lt Bromhead with a Zulu prisoner and was told , " Deal with it Ashton ! " , this he did by stringing him up ! . Today would this be considered a war crime ? . Even Pte Hook ( later VC ) finished off a Zulu in the clear up after Rorke's Drift . Times & attitudes were different then of course , today such actions would merit a Court Of Inquiry for those two , not so in 1879 . Sapper .
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Sapper

I think the hanging (or lynching?) was put down to a misunderstanding of the order, although there is more than than one account of the incident. The body (or was it two?) was/were seen by Smith-Dorrien on his return to RD from Helpmekaar.

As Hook was nearly killed by his Zulu during the aftermath, I think he mentioned that subsequently the enemy wounded were, indeed, killed. The NNC present, just returned from Zululand, would probably have followed this course anyway. It doesn't seem to have been at all unusual in the second half of the 19th century for British soldiery to have followed this custom, especially where a previous defeat (often described as a massacre or atrocity) had occurred, or in a theatre in which it was known that the enemy also took no prisoners. The Indian Mutiny and its aftermath saw countless genuine atrocities committed by officers and men of the British army (by any standards, and not just finishing off wounded) and after the experience with "shamming" Sudanese tribesmen in the 1880s and 1890s, it was certainly standard practice for the British to finish off the enemy wounded - in huge numbers, too. Ditto for Khambula, Ulundi, etc etc.

As you say, things were clearly different then. The so-called white flag atrocities of the 2nd ABW appear to have been a mixture of genuine misunderstandings, propaganda, and the routine confusion of post-battle actions as well as some genuine cases of trickery. Although no doubt not routine, there were, of course, cases of British infantry on the WF escorting German prisoners to the rear and shooting them in cold blood before going very far, and no doubt vice versa - and the following world war doesn't even bear thinking about. It would seem that for every Court of Enquiry since 1945, there could easily have been a dozen others.

Apparently the "dangerous" time is near the end or at the conclusion of an action, often because of confusion about surrenders as well as one's blood being up and not wanting to take chances. I count my blessings that I have never had to experience such a moment.

Peter
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In Agreement .
Sapper Mason


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 333
Location: ANGLESEY
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Smile,
Dear Peter ,
I find myself in TOTAL AGREEMENT with all you say in your recent submission. I think in every campaign there were dark moments , " best forgotten " as to the behaviour of the troops ( British ) in any campaign we care to mention . Today if a civilian was killed or beaten up badly there would be huge outcries on the International stage as recent events have shown . I well remember my own , " blood lust " when in training for Northern Ireland in a place known by many soldiers in Germany called , " TIN CITY ", i don`t think it is right to comment onto todays events and yes Peter i think there were two Zulu`s strung up that day and as far as i am aware no one was held to task about this later on . As was the custom with the Red Indians the opening up of a fallen soldier had different meanings to them and the Zulu nation , not accepted by the British soldier of the day . I won`t go into the debate about the drummer boys here Peter .

We were not saints by any means and you quote some examples of what we did in various campaigns . Hook defended himself against a fallen Zulu while Ashton took a literal meaning of , " Take care of them Ashton " . I saw things in Northern Ireland i definetly NEVER want to see or go through again , " Sapper " .
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David Glynne Fox


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Nottingham
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One only has to look at the aftermath of Culloden. If ever there was a case of the British army committing genocide, then this was it. When I first read of this disgrace I was ashamed to call myself English for a very long time. But then, different times, different standards and different measures.
Regards
david

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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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David

Yes, different times. And, being a rebellion against the Crown (rather than an English/Scottish conflict) probably explains the aftermath. I think anti-Pretender feelings were running high all through the rebellion. In a small port not a dozen miles from where I write, as much as 400 miles or more from Scotland, the vicar of the local C of E parish church scribbled down his own feelings about the "Scotch rebells" on a spare page of the baptism register and I wouldn't dream of repeating his language here!

On behalf of my own ancestors (admittedly southern uplanders rather than highlanders) I hereby forgive all you Sassenachs (and no doubt a good few European mercenaries) for the excesses of your own ancestors over two and a half centuries ago. Of course, I realise that I probably don't speak for all North Britons!

Peter
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HARMAN
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I believe Ron Locks is involved in some documents have been uncovered which shows that Rorke's Drift defenders did commit acts what would amount to war crimes to day.
Some documents state that wounded Zulu�s were thrown into mass graves and bury alive.
A book about these documents may have already been published not sure only going by memory of something I read.
Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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The dehumanization of an enemy has been with Mankind probably for as long as human conflict has, likely as a defense against cognitive dissonance. It wouldn't take too much effort to list scores (or even hundreds) of terms applied to our enemies to avoid recognizing their humanity-- "huns", "nips", "skinneys", "gooks", and many more far worse. Combine that with the Victorian's ingrained feelings of White/Christian "superiority" and you've produced a potent mix that can only result in "inhuman "behavior ("If they weren't actually sub-human, they were decidedly sub-British"). "ZULU", a movie with generally unrecognized depths, briefly addresses this very issue in the exchange between Addendorf and Bromhead: "Damn the levees, Man, just more cowardly Blacks" (although I'm certain the real Bromhead wouldn't have used the word "Blacks"). I believe the Geneva Convention originally banned the horrific Webley MK III "Manstopper" bullet EXCEPT for use against non-Christians-- that ought to tell us something right there.

Parenthetically, let's not forget that War Crime trials are never held by the losers, so there's a fair possibility of abuse by those with an agenda other than "Justice". Example: MacArthur's persecution (and prosecution) of a certain Japanese general.

Just a few random thoughts ...
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Oh, I wanted to share an anecdote that I came across last night in a biography of Kitchener that may demonstrate the different views of War by different cultures-- or maybe not, but it's still a good anecdote. It seems that Birdwood (his rank at the time escapes me) had occasion to share a shell-hole with a Pathan soldier in WWI and, being surrounded by death and destruction, he asked rhetorically:
"Isn't this a horrible, horrible war?"
The Pathan answered, presumably without hesitation:
"Yes, but it's the only one we've got."


Last edited by Sawubona on Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Religion
Sapper Mason


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 333
Location: ANGLESEY
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Dear Sawubona ,
What about the terrible things done in the name of religion ? , crusades were fought , missionaries , " forced " beliefs down indiginous populace throats , Catholics against Protestants , the list is endless , it all comes down to politics IN THE END , we could go on and on , " chinks ," wops " " gypos " , " wogs " ( really choice words ) , the MAU-MAU in KENYA, the Vietcong and yes i have not forgotten the British , " invented " concentration camps ( Boer War ) , why not throw in the Spanish Inquistion ? , and the Black Hole Of Calcutta ? , it hardly seems " fair " to isolate the actions of British troops in that 9 month campaign in 1879 , go back to Roman times , was not a Good Shepard killed in a terrible manner ? . Let those without SIN cast the first stone . Remember HITLER , POL POT and other such , " charmers " , the World is littered with many more examples , i can`t recall anyone from the UK flying aircraft into buildings or killing innocent people on the Underground and i do remember an innocent man getting shot by our own police on the Underground .

The soldier of 1879 was far removed from the one of today and it would hardly be fair to stack one up against another , of course things of an unsavoury nature happened and will do in the future , at least we don`t flog our soldiers today as they did then , life was cheap in 1879 don`t forget , yes our troops ( 1879 ) did bad things but how do you put such things on a list of culpability i wonder ? , Sapper .
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flawedhero


Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 12
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Sapper,
Common misconception about the concentration camps, not wishing to defend what was a inexcusable loss of life amongst boer non-combattants the only thing we invented was the name didn't take on the genocidal connotations until,World War 2. Although there were thousands of deaths in the camps this wasn't the intention of them If memory serves me correctly as well the first incarnation of that sort of establishment was in the Spanish American War
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rich


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Long Island NY USA
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Some of you no doubt saw "Saving Private Ryan". In the film, as the invading American soldiers came off Omaha and got the better of the Germans some scenes show the Americans shooting Germans in trenches like "fish in a barrel". Some soldiers are shown even shooting unarmed Germans while they were in the act of surrendering. There's a shot of Tom Hank's face as this going on. He sees this as a commanding officer. You can tell he's troubled but under the circumstances can't do nothing about it.
Remarkable how when one sees it that it forces one to think of the fine line between atrocity and expected behavior in battle after tremendous duress. I wasn't at Normandy but seeing the film vicariously brought me into a soldiers world where it's his life or another man's.

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HARMAN
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I would have imagined all rules of engagement and welfare towards the wounded when out of the window after the mutilation that the Zulus inflicted on the British at Isandhlwana.
Do UN-to others as they do UN-to you.
Did one Zulu die twice?
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