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Why This
a.j


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Thornaby-On-Tees, Great Britain
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Why is the Zulu war one of the most popular Victorian wars, because then we have the Anglo-Afghan War of 1878-1880 and then the Sudan War of 1884-1884 then 1896-1898; So why is it that the Zulu War fascinates us so much?
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Funnily enough, aj, as a young boy growing up in Zululand/Natal, besides all the WWII fighter Ace stories, I was more interested in the Afghan and Sudanese campaigns.
Gordon was a universal hero, and having lost his head, in a far away place, much more interesting than Chelmsford's folly next door.
There were also these images of redcoated, kilted soldiers, bagpipes playing, being picked off by bearded, turbaned afghan warriors with their muskets, as they laboured up steep inclines.
The stuff of real heroes.
The Charlton Heston film 'Khartoum' was released not too long after 'Zulu' came out.
To just point out the current universal appeal of the 'Rorke's Drift factor', though; seen on the wall in the 'Gallipoli' barracks at the Australian Royal Military College where the Officer cadets of approximately 5 Pacific rim nations are trained, a copy of Alphonse de Neuville's 'The Defence of Rorke's Drift', the original of which is held by the New South Wales Gallery in Sydney.
This is the only picture in the barracks hall. Obviously there as an inspiration to our future military leaders.
My son, not noted for his knowledge of history, although Australian trained, recently commissioned into the New Zealand Army, pointed it out to me, on my recent visit there.
An image of the RD defence, set to inspire mostly ANZAC cadets, in their 'Gallipoli' Company, in a war in which no Australian or New Zealand troops were involved, ....truly remarkable.

Sean Sweeney
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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As Sean has said, I think the images of the defence of Rorke's Drift is what initially catches people attention, with the defence of a small mission station with an equally small number of men against overwhelming odds. The prevalence of movies that can be said to have the same 'siege' type of story line is testament to this.

But then this is in contrast to the utter annilhilation of a much larger military force earlier in the same day. I think it is the unique juxtaposition of these two events that captures peoples' imaginations.

By contrast the other campaigns of the Anglo-Zulu War tend to be side-lined perhaps because there is not the intrigue found in that initial devastating contact and subsequent conflict at Rorke's Drift.

Dawn
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Sean

Sorry to disagree but there was an Australian, if not at the battle of Isandlwana, then very close by. I refer to Commandant Rupert La Trobe Lonsdale, commanding the 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent. He was born in Melbourne, Australia on 23rd August 1849.
KIS
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Thanks Keith,

I'm sure there's been an Australian in just about every Victorian era scrap, and a few more.
The Egyptian and British 'Palestine' Police can attest to their fighting capabilities as well.
I meant more in an official capacity as representatives of their countries/states armed forces.
New Zealanders are a much more civilized lot, and better behaved when abroad, except maybe for the Maori Battalion, who have an enduring reputation as 'scrappers'.
I believe Rommell once complained to the British High Command of their 'over enthusiasm' in the Western Desert.
I guess they took to killing Germans and Italians a bit too enthusiastically for his liking.
Shame Cmdt Lonsdale wasn't able to assert any authority on the outcome.
I believe he rode into the camp before finding it full of red-coated, blood-stained Zulus, and hightailed it out again, before meeting up with Chelmsford, en-route back to Isandhlwana, and informing him of the outcome.
Where was he when the battle was on ?
Any idea what he was doing so far from home commanding a South African Colonial regiment, and his subsequent actions ?
I know he commanded Lonsdale's horse.
The La Trobe and Lonsdale names feature quite prominantly in Victoria (Australia, for the uninitiated).
Sean
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Barbara Grant
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aj:

In answer to your initial question, perhaps one of the reasons the AZW is so popular as a Victorian war is because it was so well done on film (though obviously not completely accurate as has been mentioned by many on this site); and many have come to research historical events after first seeing a film. I'm very, very interested in the Sudan campaigns; and although I greatly enjoyed the Charlton Heston/"Khartoum" film it takes immense liberties with historical reality (for instance, there was never the "meeting" between the Mahdi and Gen. Gordon as portrayed in that film, during which the Mahdi pulls the severed head of Gordon's 2nd-in-command from a basket.)

In addition, I agree with other posters who've noted that the prospect of a small force prevailing against an overwhelming number of the enemy, coupled with the massive defeat of a large British force earlier that day, provides a strongly "inspirational" aspect that works to generate interest in the RD engagement specifically, and the AZW in general. Many people love an underdog.

Barbara
Rich
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You know without a doubt the AZW certainly has its share of derring-do, brilliant defense and shattering disaster which all comes together to fire the imagination of that time way back when. I'd think it a good perspective to know that when "Zulu" first came out in the early 60's it was an entirely different picture as such and it metaphorically tapped into the feeling of the times. That time was when practically everything in societies was being questioned morally ,politically and racially. It was such a time of unrest and it was a topsy-turvy world. "Zulu" fitted in real well along that score since it brought to life a period of South African and English history which reflected all those concerns. Concerns, in fact, which go on to this day.
Barbara Grant
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Richus,

Corollary to what you said, "Zulu" portrayed the courage of the enlisted British soldier (Hook being the most obvious example), in addition to that demonstrated by the officers at RD. I think (but am not certain) that most historical epics prior to that time, and surrounding it, focused primarily on officers, as "Khartoum" did.
Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 377
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Barbara,

You may be right about ZULU being a rare "historical" (pre- or early 20th century) war film to have such an emphasis on the private soldiers. Funny, but it hadn't really struck me before: most of the famous "British" (often Hollywood-produced) imperial adventures, such as THE LIVES OF A BENGAL LANCER, THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE, THE DRUM, NORTH WEST FRONTIER, LAWRENCE OF ARABIA and of course the various versions of THE FOUR FEATHERS and KING OF THE KHYBER RIFLES centre on junior officers or (in the case of GUNGA DIN and its remake SOLDIERS THREE) NCOs, with the lower ranks little more than comic relief or cannon fodder. This does tend to explain why Hook was such an appealing figure in the 1960s: (in)subordinate but sexy as well as funny!

Incidentally, the liberties taken by KHARTOUM were cited by ZULU writer John Prebble as exemplary of what he saw as the legitimate tinkering with history for dramatic purposes. In the case of the meeting between Gordon and the Mahdi, this was an "adaptation" of their communications by letter into a more visually dramatic (hence cinematic) form.
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Keith
As Rupert Lonsdale and James Lonsdale were cousins, was James also born in Australia?

Dawn
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Dawn

I have done no research on James Lonsdale and I had hitherto thought that they were unrelated. I would be interested in learning your source(s) for their being cousins? I have Rupert's Service Record, which shows his date and place of birth.

KIS
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Mike Snook


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 130
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Keith

Dawn probably got that from me - I got it from a secondary source - anybody know the primary source?

Mike
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Keith
Mike's right, I got it from HCMDB but I'm sure I've read it somewhere else before. I've have to look though my sources but, as I'm still recovering from New Year's Eve, it will have to wait.

Dawn
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Barbara Grant
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Sheldon,

Thanks for your communication regarding legitimate historical "tinkering" for cinematic purposes. I suspect that many producers/directors, and those who would be, may struggle with the disparities between what's actually been recorded in history and what will be effective in film. Many want to see historical events dramatized; and it seems to me that if liberties are taken, there must be a logical reason supplied.
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