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Date	Original Topic
16th January 2003	the flight of the guns at isandlwhana By Andrew storey Has anyone ever located the spot in the 'ravine' which the guns plunged into as the drivers were brought down and stabbed by the zulus.
Date	Replies
17th January 2003	Mark Hobson Hi Andrew. The actual ravine in question is actually quite easy to find along the fugitives' trail. It is only a short distance from the nek, just beyond the western flank of Black's Kopie. To get there involves a walk of about 10 to 15 minutes from the main carpark. Over the years erosion has widened the ravine and it is probably more overgrown now, but there is little doubt that this is the one as there are several cairns closeby. By the way, there is some question as to whether the guns actually fell into the ravine or just floundered on the edge. When the fugitives hit the ravine they naturally turned to follow its course south-west. Lt Melvill seems to have lost his sword somewhere here. Later it joins the Manzimyama stream where Lt Anstey's last stand took place. It's impossible to tell exactly where the guns ended up as they were taken away by the Zulus a short while later. Hope this helps.
19th January 2003	Trevor Finney Mark. What happened to the guns later? Did the Zulu use them? I assume they were recovered! Can you help please
19th January 2003	John Young Trevor, The two cannon were recovered on Monday 10th August, 1879, by a patrol under the command of Major P.H.S. Barrow, of No.2 Squadron, Mounted Infantry. When they were found it was discovered that one had been loaded with an empty cannon shell, together with a small charge of powder. Norris-Newman in his book states: 'But the Zulus had evidently had no conception of any due proprtion between the powder-charge and the projectile; for on being fired, the shell dropped quietly about five yards from the muzzle of the gun.' So it at least the Zulu had made an effort to learn the art of artillery. John Young, A.-Z.W.R.S.
20th January 2003	Trevor Finney Cheers John. I thought the Zulu would try to work out how to use them! Lucky for the Brits they didn't work it out! Thanks again.
21st January 2003	George Hulmes I would have thought it would have been difficult for the Zulus to transport the guns anywhere. Acording to general belief, the Zulus killed anything and everything living during and after the battle of Isandhlwana, which probably would have included the artillery horses as well. I don't know how hard it is to tow/ move a 7 pounder field gun plus limber carriage personally, but it would have been hard as well as dangerous to say the least. BTW: Where were the two guns found in proportion to the site of the Isandlwana battlefield and the trail through which Stewart Smith and his crews tried to escape? Regards, Morden
21st January 2003	Mark Hobson When the British line fell back on the camp and the Zulus broke through, the artillery attempted to escape along the road back to Rorke's Drift. Forced off the track they found themselves in the ravine. According to Lt Curling RA- ..."we followed a crowd of natives and camp followers who were running down a ravine. The Zulus were all amoung them, stabbing men as they ran. The ravine got steeper and steeper and finally the guns stuck and could get no further. In a moment, the Zulus closed in and the drivers, who alone remained, were pulled off their horses and killed." He explained further, ..."The guns could not be spiked, there was no time to think of anything and we hoped to save the guns up to the last moment". The above are extracts taken from Best and Greaves' The Curling Letters of the Zulu War, an excellant book. Apparantly when Cetshwayo heard that the guns had been abandoned he ordered his men to return to Isandlwana and to bring them to Ulundi, which they did. It's a considerable distance, 40-50 miles. As John says above, they attempted but failed to make them work. They were later recovered by the British near the Amanzakanzie kraal, together with the missing limber, all undamaged. They were taken to Durban and put on display in a shed where they became quite a draw, before eventually being shipped back to Britain and presumably returned to service. Incidentally, in the Military Museum in Jo'berg there is an exact copy of the 7-pounders used in the Zulu War. They are much smaller than people imagine, nothing like in Zulu Dawn.
21st January 2003	John Young George, The seven-pounder Rifled Muzzle Loading cannon, is very small calibre gun, total weight, I believe was 200 lbs, or 91 kg. Throw a couple of ropes on them and pull them, shades of the Royal Navy's gun runs. So no need for horses, when you've got the manpower. The limber, if fully loaded, weighed 11 1/4 cwt, or 2.332 imperial tons. The cannon were not recovered anywhere near the battlefield of Isandlwana. The nearest battlesite to where they were found is Ulundi. In 'The Narrative of Field Operations...' the recovery date is given as 11th August, rather than Norris-Newman's date of the 10th. 'The Narrative...' states: 'While Clarke's column was moving up from the White Umvolosi to Ulundi, the mounted men pushed on towards the Black Umvolosi, and reached a kraal belonging to Ketchwayo, named Mayizekanye. This place, which had been supposed to be a formidable stronghold for the protection of Ketchwayo's arsenal, was found to be merely an ordinary military kraal, about 100 yards in diameter, which had been already destroyed by the Zulus. Some rockets and 7-pr. shells were found at Mayizekanye, and in a ravine about a mile short of the kraal, the two 7-pr. guns, captured by the Zulus at isandhlwana, were discovered. An attempt had been made to render these guns serviceable by screwing ordinary gun nipples into their vents, but they were otherwise uninjured. They were now mounted on their carriages which were standing close by, and brought to Ulundi by the mounted men.' (Original spelling retained throughout the quote.) In the 'Companion to Narrative of the Field Operations...' published in 1989, Mayizekanye is cross-referenced with emLambongwenya, which I presume is another name for it. John Young, A.-Z.W.R.S.
21st January 2003	John Young Mark, We appear to have been giving the answer at much the same time, hence some cross over facts. As to what the guns of N/5 actually looked like, Peter the Webmaster, did put up an image from my original photograph somewhere on the site some months back. John Young, A.-Z.W.R.S.