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Date	Original Topic
1st May 2002	Monmouthshire - was it or wasn't it? By Alan Critchley To add further to the discussion surrounding where Monmouth is or was, I came across the following. The Illustrated News of 11th. January 1879 ran an article about publications in the 17th. century in which the news of the day was reported. One read as so:- "Woeful Newes from Wales, or the lamentable loss of divers Villages and Parishes (by a strange and wonderful Floud) within the Countye of Monmouth in Wales: which happened in January last past, 1607, whereby a great number of his Majesties subjects inhabiting these parts are utterly undone". One more spanner in the location saga about Monmouth? English or Welsh at the time of the Zulu War? Still interested in a definitive history, someone must know. Alan "
Date	Replies
1st May 2002	Martin Everett Dear Alan, Over the last few months, I have been working with the VC/GC Project Team which is creating a definitive (or as close as possible) database of VC/GC recipients which will be published in 2003 and will ultimately be able through the Internet. The project is being sponsored by the Ministry of Defence. When looking the circumstances of these awards, it is clear that all are acts of supreme gallantry and self sacrifice undertaken by 'ordinary' servicemen and civilians in some very difficult circumstances. And yet there are others who wish to create winner league tables - number of Welsh VCs, number of VCs won by the Royal Bankshire Rifles. Even the word 'won' doesn't seem seem appropriate for the award of the VC. It is not game - with winners and losers. You have personally been to Rorke's Drift - all those VCs were truly deserved - so does it matter whether Monmouthshire is Wales or England in this context. Martin
1st May 2002	John Young Alan, This one is bugging you, isn't it? So was it you that asked the question in 'The Daily Mail' yesterday? John
2nd May 2002	Alan Critchley no, but it prompted me. Wish now I hadn't bothered.! Alan
2nd May 2002	Alec Weston Dear Alan, This is a truly interesting point, and thank you for adding to it - although I believe Martin Everett and John Young are both correct because Monmouthshire definately went to Wales in, I believe, 1974. Where it was before then, I don't know, I had always presumed that for it to go to Wales, it must have been English? It may only add to the confusion but, when the news of Isandhlwana reached the UK, the Daily News reported as follows; "Death had, prematurely visited hundreds of peaceful and happy homes in England". As it seems many of the soldiers involved came from Monmouthshire, can one presume that the Daily News was correct at that time? Alec
3rd May 2002	Mike Jones I am afraid that it is I who may have been responsible for starting this debate. However, I stand by what I wrote on the 22nd March this year (you may wish to go back to that page). There is one exception "Offa" was responsible for building "Offa's Dyke" In AD and not BC as I previously misquoated. It was not my intention to make any poliical statements or detract from the gallantry of all those who served in the "Zulu wars" I was just trying to explain that I believe that Monmouth (shire) was originally part of Wales until the "Act of Union". "Pwllmyric" near Chepstow is certainly a Welsh place name, Chepstow Castle in Welsh is Known as "Cas Gwent". Monmouthshire, I Agree, for many years was known as the "Bastard County". There are several websites that back up my opinion that Monmouth (shire) was and as always been part of Waes even though it was governed by England for many years. To emphasise my point Welsh was spoken in many parts of what is know England even before England ever existed. I will go as far as to say Welsh is the oldest "living language" in the whole of Europe.
5th May 2002	Julian Whybra As an historian I have always had two strings to my bow - one has been British Imperial history but the other has been Anglo-Saxon history with especial reference to the historical geography of the period. So, I can tell you that Monmouthshire was never part of anglo-Saxon England (ie down to 1066) and was NOT one of the traditional shires of England as formed in Wessex in the 7th century and in the rest of England in the 920s. Neither did it form part of the Norman conquests on this island. Neither was it included in the area of Edward I�s �principality� of Wales in 1327 which was shired into 6 counties. However, it was the Act of Union with Wales under Henry VIII in 1536 which shired Wales and Monmouthshire was created out of Gwent and another smaller district. Because of its geographical position, large English-speaking areas and its economic importance to the Severn valley hinterland it had one difference to the other Welsh counties and that was that it was made subject to the English assizes and sent 2 knights to the English parliament although it remained administratively part of Wales. I have found one lone reference (in a history of Monmouthshire written in the 1830s) that this situation remained until a law of Charles I transferred Monmouthshire to England in the late 1620s/early 1630s. I have searched and searched and can find no reference to this law anywhere. I�ll keep searching but perhaps there�s a Stuart historian out there who better knows where to look and can take up the story. The one thing I can be sure of is that, just like the Zulu War, you cannot just take what you read in ANY modern work at face value - you have to look at the author�s tendentiousness. It all depends whether he/she has an English/Welsh (or come to that British/Zulu) axe (or assegai!) to grind!
5th May 2002	Julian whybra Mike, I believe you'll find Basque and Lithuanian, in that order, predate Welsh as the oldest living languages in Europe.
6th May 2002	j.whybra Hmmm. I've now found a reference in a more reliable source to that transfer to England as having taken place in the reign of Charles II 1660-85 but I'm still short on details.
7th May 2002	Julian Whybra Right, the Charles II date is a red herring; that was when Monmouthshire was placed in the Oxford circuit of assizes which seems to have led to and reinforced the confusion - one which was played upon by English residents in the 19th century. For legal and administrative purposes Monmouthshire was often placed alongside English counties, however it was at no time annexed to England from Wales. Every specifically Welsh law in the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries was applied in Monmouthshire too. Whatever people may have felt, may feel, Monmouthshire is, was, and no doubt will be in Wales (I say this as a died-in-the-wool Englishman). Without boring you with the innumerable sources there is a reasonable website, not too wordy, a bit pro-Welsh (but justifiably so) which summarizes the main points: www.argonet.co.uk/users/ghale/gwent.html
11th May 2002	mike jones Julian. thank you for supporting my statement perhaps the site can be amended accordingly. mike
11th May 2002	Alan Critchley Mike, having visited the website recommended by Julian, my head hurts from the complex history of Monmouthshire. Perhaps when Wales, including Monmouthshire elected not to open their pubs on Sunday, the English lot said, it must be Welsh after all, we have no further claim. Alan
12th May 2002	Julian Whybra I think I might add just one more bit of annoyance. The fact that Monmouthshire was Welsh has no relevance to the fact that the Monmouthshire Regiment was British (or even felt itself an English) Regiment - rather like Berwick, England playing in the Scottish F.A.
12th May 2002	mike jones Alan, Julian Thank you both for the interest shown in this issue. I was only trying to ensure that the site was correct. Again I was not trying to make a political statement. I have proudly served or been involved with the British army since 1976. 3RRW, The Army Cadet Force as an instructor and latterly The Royal Logistics Corp "Railway Squadron" at 45 I thought I was to old (so did the army) I ended my engagement Dec 2001. I am happy now to be branch Secretary of The RRW association. Regards Mike
14th May 2002	Julian Whybra Mike, it was a pleasure, I enjoyed the research - it made a change from the Zulu War - in fact it got me interested in exploring the boundary changes between Monmouthshire and Herfordshire/Gloucestershire which has been quite fascinating so thank YOU!