| Date | Original Topic |
| 16th August 2005 | The Setting for Zulu
By Dawn
Where was the movie Zulu filmed? Now before anyone says Africa, I mean the exact place in Africa. I've watched the movie again and can't get it from the credits. To me it looks like it was set in the Drakensberg because of the distinctive mountain in the background which looks like The Ampitheatre in the Drakensberg. This, of course, could not be seen from the real Rorkes Drift but makes an excellent backdrop to the movie. Any Natalians out there to comfirm or deny?
Dawn |
| Date | Replies |
| 16th August 2005 | Andy Lee
Dawn
Not sure about the South African location, hopefully this will be revealed in Sheldon Hall's new book (Sept 05) but am I right in thinking the scenes filmed in the church and in the hospital were film in London.
Andy |
| 16th August 2005 | Coll
Dawn
I'm sure I read it was at the Royal Natal Park in the Drakensburg foothills.
Also, there was a description saying the dramatic image of the mountains in the background gave the impression of an ampitheatre, the action taking centre place.
Coll |
| 16th August 2005 | Dawn
I'm talking about the outside bits. I just can't figure if the big flat, mountain in the background is a backdrop or the real thing. And whichever it is, whether it is The Ampitheatre.
Dawn |
| 16th August 2005 | Peter Ewart
Dawn
Sheldon will give you chapter & verse, but also have a look at the links, left. Under "Your Travel Strories", see Melvin Hunt's account of his first visit to Zululand - including the "amphitheatre" and the photographs he took while there.
Peter |
| 16th August 2005 | Sheldon Hall
ZULU was filmed at Mont-Aux-Sources in the Drakensberg mountain range, Royal Natal National Park. It is indeed the (real) Ampitheatre in the background. All the exterior camp scenes and the scenes in the storeroom with Witt and Bourne were filmed there; the aftermath of Isandlwana, the Zulu mass wedding and the river scenes were shot nearby. All other interiors were shot at Twickenham Studios north of London.
Just around the corner from the main set was the Royal Natal National Park Hotel (now closed), where some of the cast and crew stayed; the rest stayed at the Mont-Aux-Sources Hotel, a few miles uphill, still open and managed by the same man as in 1963! (I can supply room nos. for individual cast & crew members on request...)
Sheldon |
| 16th August 2005 | Dawn
Thanks Sheldon
I was sure it was the Ampitheatre, it is so distinctive. I like the imagery of the battle being played out in an ampitheatre, as Coll said, even though the range would not have been seen from Rorkes Drift. Thanks for putting me out of my misery, its been plaguing me for days. (Sad, I know)
Dawn |
| 18th August 2005 | Rich
Hey Sheldon..anything you DON'T know about 'Zulu" and film in general, eh??
Now I'd like to ask you this. Whatever happened to all those discarded shields and assegai's that we see in the final scenes after the repulse of the Zulus? Were they destroyed? Given away? Kept somewhere
in prop storage in Natal? Sold on the Internet? Heck even if they were replicas I wouldn't mind to have one. |
| 18th August 2005 | Mike McCabe
Most used in Zulu belonged to the people carrying them. Most used in Zulu Dawn were made out of printed cardboard and littered the Kwa Zulu countryside for months/years afterwards having been dumped there by extras on their way home when the bus driver would not let them on without them!
MC McC |
| 18th August 2005 | Mike McCabe
With/without, English speaker please!
MC McC |
| 18th August 2005 | Mike McCabe
Neither the Zulu nor Zulu Dawn settings were very well chosen - there being plenty of visually more representative places that would have been more realistic or authentic. However, authenticity was clearly not much of a factor in Zulu and the Zulu Dawn production was bedevilled by various factors that prevented free choices.
In Zulu, the main peculiarity was the building of a mission station bearing only very slight resemblance to the original - and bigger overall. However, it did mean that camera work for the many scenes could be more easily done.
Zulu Dawn was a curious mix of some (probably) quite authentic scenes and features and some rather fanciful garnishings. Its most unfortunate feature was the 'Carry On' characterisation of anybody in the British military - preventing any realisation of the undoubted personal professionalism of the majority. So, bawling unintelligent NCOs, gormless young soldiers (and more than a few fat geriatrics), dim-witted Quatermasters, foppish officers behaving pretentiously in each other's company, etc etc. However, we were spared Men of Harlech!
MC McC |
| 18th August 2005 | Rich
Mike:
Thanks..that's hilarious! We aficionados have to lament all that going on! And as for the two films I was a bit disappointed by the music in "Dawn". Barry apparently was not called to do it but Elmer Bernstein. Fine composer, but for me, I just didn't think he captured the essence of the story in his music.
Btw, saw your note on Durnford. Any idea what Sandhurst says about what Pulleine at et al should've done to avert disaster? Form square quickly, fight the battle in a smaller area? Hard not to argue that when Durnford and his men turn to fall back (or in any case where it ocurred on that killing ground) that it does wonders for Zulu battle psychology and the odds multiply in favor of the attacker.
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| 18th August 2005 | Sheldon Hall
Rich,
You'd be amazed by how much I don't know! But I do know, contrary to Mike's observation, that none of the shields or props in ZULU belonged to the Zulus themselves (not at first, anyway; they may have kept some as souvenirs). They were made by a local firm, AJ Harborth. Many were kept by members of the crew (inc. Stanley Baker) and taken home to the UK; no doubt others were discarded and destroyed. It is no doubt possible to find some on eBay or elswhere. |
| 18th August 2005 | Mike McCabe
What - absolutely none whatsoever? You sure?
My informant on Zulu was (the late) Stan of Babanango, but he is not the only person that told me this. Chief Buthelezi, apparently wore some family heirloom items as did other 'foreground' prominents. The quality of finish and design of the Zulu items in Zulu was seemingly very good.
Always need to draw differences between what goes on in the foreground and what behind. Zulu Dawn best example of the difference. The Zulu Dawn cardboard I saw with my own eyes on several subsequent visits.
The music of the Natal Carbineers Band had to be prominent in Zulu Dawn. Hence the band's existing repertoire featured strongly, generating some minor anachronisms. My fondest memory of Zulu Dawn (on a very short list) are the interesting characterisations of Chelmsford and Durnford, despite Durnford's implausible Irish accent - the Durnfords not being discernibly Irish at that stage.
Returning to the Durnford what ifs at Isandlwana, I think Edmund Yorke's book has some notes of the type you seek - he wrote it whilst a Sandhurst lecturer.
I've always held the view that Chelmsford might have been sorely pressed to defend Isandlwana even with his entire No 3 Column once the tactical error of laying the camp out administratively had been made.
Even at Khambula, and depite Wood's very carefully prepared and sited defensive arrangements, the Zulu attack almost broke in.
Not a foregone conclusion that Chelmsford would have successfully held Isandlwana camp on 22 Jan 1879, I believe - there being not many realistic courses of action for doing so. At Mangeni, after good preparation, well maybe.
Why? The arithmetic of delivering and maintaining enough effective fire.
MC McC |
| 18th August 2005 | Rich
Mike:
Just an observation.....
At Rorkes, Chard et al had their backs literally to the wall. They were surrounded. Caught like rats in a trap. The Zulus did not afford the soldiers a way out. Now I'd suggest that the Zulus made a tactical error there. By the fact of not giving them a way out, the Zulus all but gave the ultimatum to Chard that if they want their lives they'd have to fight tooth and nail which they obviously did. Now if the Zulus left an area open or uncovered that would signal to the RD defenders that there was a way out if they wanted to take it. That changes the mental and stressful situation. In contrast, at Isandhlwana, I'd think it could be argued that the route out of camp while ostensibly a life-line, really in the end, was a psychological barrier in assessing the dire situation the soldiers found themselves in. Maybe better fully surrounded with the resulting fire that could be developed than fighting in that large open area? Ah all conjecture.....I wish Durnford survived to tell the story.
|
| 18th August 2005 | Paul Cubbin
At RD the road to Natal was open for an awful long time and a lot of people used it! I think those that would have run from Isandlwana would have been the mounted contingents and the NNC. The infantry and artillery would have remained as long as the camp did. |
| 18th August 2005 | Mike McCabe
Rich/Paul,
It's well known that an early decision was taken to stay to defend the RD post - even before it was a certainty that the Zulus were going to attack it. They need not have done, and probably did so seeking a 'quick win' rather than spend even more time raiding the not very many and almost certainly evacuated nearby farms.
Apart from any waggons, there would have been no need to use 'a road' to withdraw to Helpmakaar - indeed for infantry on foot the waggon road is at least an extra 3 miles longer than the direct route. Moreover, only somebody wanting to go to Helpmakaar or to bypass close to it it to reach somewhere else via the plateau would have considered using the road. The direct route to the Natal midlands (RD already being in Natal) is via the southern slopes of Shiyane in the direction (cross country) of Tugela Ferry - as if going to Isibindi Lodge, in other words!
However, that's an academic consideration given that there was no intention to abandon RD, its operational stocks, and hospital patients - and only a fool would have done so once the Zulu attackers were known for sure to be heading for RD.
Wasn't much 'psychological barrier' stuff going on at the time - or debating of options by the R&F - I suggest.
MC McC |
| 19th August 2005 | Rich
Mike:
The Yorke book you referred to..Is it "Dividing Your Forces"? If not, please set me right as I'd like to get it. Thanks.
|
| 19th August 2005 | Mike McCabe
I'm doing this from (incomplete) memory and, unfortunately, my copy is unlikely to emerge from boxes until I have more shelving.
Suggest you leave the query on the site here until some kind soul provides the right answer.
MC McC |
| 19th August 2005 | Rich
That's good Mike, thanks...hope someone can chime in. |
| 22nd August 2005 | Paul Cubbin
There's a small bit in Edmund Yorke's 'Rorke's Drift 1879' on pages 75/76 where the post battle analysis of Isandlwana questions the actions (or lack of) of the commanders - Chelmsford, Durnford and, to a lesser extent, Pulleine. Greatest critiscism comes from the decision not to laager wagons as a final redoubt, something that now seems criminal.
Mike, there may not have been a decision to abandon RD, but that didn't stop the NNC from legging it! There weren't many fugitives from Isandlwana who stopped to help, either, but that's probably understandable. I haven't been to Zululand or Natal, but is the topography around RD and Helpmakaar flat enough to allow cross country travel with ease? |
| 22nd August 2005 | Mike McCabe
The general alignment of the two principal buildings at RD is NNE to SSW, with the Commisariat Store at the North end. Because of the frequency with which the various Chard sketch maps are used (sometimes trimmed of peripheral detail, such as the 'compass' point) and impression forms in some people's minds that they are actually laid out on an East West axis.
I have separately sent youan extract from the 1960s 1:50,000 scale mapping of the area that shows the general relationship between the RD buildings, on their raised sandstone ledge, the river, and the very large feature of the Oskarberg. To the SW, South, and SE are various features of rising ground ramping up onto a plateau on which Helpmekaar sits and which is ultimately part of the Biggarsberg feature. The Rorke's Drift mission station had long fields of fire and view in almost all directions until the rising slopes of the Oskarberg, lead up into the so-called 'terraces', actually a near continuous ledge running for about 500 yards.
Zulu marksmanship from this area is often unfairly criticised, it being notoriously difficult to fire downwards from an elevated firing position, using a weapon that does not have a calibrated sight, and when the strike of the shot is not easy to observe against a clear background - so making it difficult to adjust the point of aim.
MC McC |
| 22nd August 2005 | Michael Boyle
Rich, I think don't think it was a tactical mistake for the Zulus not to have left open a path for retreat. It doesn't seem Zulu strategy allowed for 'tactical' victory, only complete annihilation. The 'horns of the beast' deployment was specifically designed to allow no enemies the ability to 'fight another day'. The reason perhaps being that a Zulu army could not be maintained in the field after a battle due to their religious requirements of post battle 'ablutions' and the need to 're-doctor' the whole force before it could again take the field. The process could take three days for pre-battle 'doctoring', not counting the time for the troops to return home for 'ablution' first, the time neccessary for 'ablution' and the time needed to reform again prior to re-deployment. I would imagine that it could take a week to ten days before battle could again be offered. Of course the system worked just fine until the Zulu were forced to fight their first 'European' style war.
MAB |
| 23rd August 2005 | Rich
Yes, I don't think the Zulus thought of anything like that tactic. What I've always presupposed with an army like the Zulu is that a defender can never "show his back" to the Zulu. As we saw, their pursuit was relentless and ruthless. At Isandhlwana, there was instances of retreat and regrouping among the companies. I'd think it had to have the result of giving an indication to the Zulu that they had the battle in hand giving them tremednous confidence in the battle. "Red backs" running away from you is a great sight to see if you're a fighting Zulu. |
| 24th August 2005 | Michael Boyle
Or for anyone else fighting the British.
(Sorry, I did try to hold that one back!) |
| 24th August 2005 | Geoff Lumsden
Possibly an American tendency to judge final outcomes by the half time scores?
Geoff
|
| 24th August 2005 | Rich
Geoff:
Only an American tendency eh?
C'mon let's interview those guys in the stands int Istanbul with the UEFA football championships???? What a result!
|
| 25th August 2005 | Michael Boyle
Geoff, not exactly sure what you mean, but if in reference to a certain contemporary affair, many Americans (North, South and Central) 'don't rightly cotton to it'.
MAB |
| 25th August 2005 | Michael Boyle
Whoa, talk about straying off-topic! Sorry. |
| 25th August 2005 | Dawn
And all I did was ask where 'Zulu' was filmed.
Dawn |
| 26th August 2005 | Melvin Hunt
Dawn
I really don't understand why the FILM "Zulu" needs to be knocked the way some contributers feel they must. It is a FILM not a historical documentary. It started most of us on this fascinating subject and, as Martin says, until the film was released, Rorkes Drift was a forgotten event. If you need any further information on the location in the Royal Natal Park please feel free to e mail me.
Mike,
The location, whilst not historically accurate, was a film makers dream and surely helped to make "Zulu" the classic film that it is. BTW, the film set is actually smaller then the actual RD battleground. The cinema camera lense just makes it appear larger. (As it does at the river/pont and wedding Kraal scenes).
The Natal Park is only a couple of hours from Dundee.
Cheers
Mel |
| 26th August 2005 | Melvin Hunt
Dawn
Just read my posting above and I would like to clarify that I am not implying that YOU have knocked "Zulu" and I am just making a general comment.
Cheers
Mel |
| 27th August 2005 | Peter D.
Rich,
Just a brief note in response to your mention of the ZULU DAWN music. It apparently wasn't so much that Barry wasn't called on to do it, as that he didn't want to. The subject came up in a 1979 interview with Barry by Martin Crosthwaite:
[i]Were you asked to score Zulu Dawn (1979) after the success of Zulu (1963)?[/i]
I was asked to do Living Free (1972) after Born Free (1966), but I refused because I don't think you can pull it off twice. You might be lucky. I think the 'Bond' and 'Pink Panther' films are a unique exception. I thought it would be best to have someone else score Zulu Dawn and so I let it be known I wasn't interested. |
| 27th August 2005 | Mike McCabe
Mel,
The area used for 'fighting' in the film Zulu is evidently much larger than the space between the hospital and store - whether you use the Chard sketch map, the attempt in the 1970s to lay out stones to simulate that, or just walk around the same space at RD today. So, how was the one in the film smaller - with the possible exception of at least the outside of the Commisariat Store tardis, the voluminous launch point for dead paperhangers, as I recall! And the mysterious 'third' building in which the bibulous Jack Hawkins spent a while.
Details please.
MC McC |
| 27th August 2005 | Melvin Hunt
Mike
I'll contact you offline and, hopefully, send you some video I took.
Cheers
Mel |
| 29th August 2005 | Steve Moore
Hi Mel, I,m sure in the green book with the tea stain, it mentions the film Zulu. I can,t be sure because I swapped it for a goldfish and it died. If Mike is correct, and who would dare dissagree, does it mean the Easter bunny isn,t real either?
I really do miss that goldfish and am trying hard to cope with the loss.He had a black fin and scales.
Cheers Steve |
| 29th August 2005 | Rich
Peter D.
Thanks for that. I wasn't aware Mr. Barry begged off. Too bad...I just think he got the
music to "Zulu" so right. It's such an integral part of the film. In begging off "Dawn", perhaps it was better then if he thought he'd be repeating himself. Well.....that great theme he managed to pick out IS hard to trump! And btw for those who have the "Zulu" soundtrack
everytime I listen to the whole record it just brings me back to that time in the 60's. It's a real nostalgia trip I'd say.
And as for "Zulu", I know it's had its critics but really it's an outstanding film that holds up even up to this day reporting on a piece of very interesting history in a kind of a relative backwater place in the world. And it's a great introduction to the question well "who are the Zulu? I think that fellow Cy did a wonderful thing. |
| 31st August 2005 | Sheldon Hall
Mike,
There is no 'third building' - the room in which Witt is locked is a store-room adjoining the chapel/surgery. You will recall that he enters it to retrieve his bottle when Reynolds takes over the chapel.
Rich,
If you want to hear an intriguing variation played on the ZULU theme tune, I suggest you get hold of a copy of the 1995 remake of CRY, THE BELOVED COUNTRY, Barry's last 'African' score. And Cy Endfield's novelisation of ZULU DAWN is also well worth reading (better than the film, as I dimly recall).
Sheldon |
| 31st August 2005 | Rich
Sheldon:
Thanks for the references and I'll be checking out that theme you suggested. |
