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13th August 2005Adventurers Who 'Shadow' An Invasion Force ?
By Coll
An unusual topic I know, but with the subject of novel and screenplay storylines and the use of characters interacting with real people of the time, I wished to ask this question -

When a force, such as the British in the AZW, enter a 'new' or 'unexplored' territory, being Zululand in this case, was it known if there were adventurers or explorers, not attached to the British forces or under their command, who tended to 'shadow' the force, as in staying close to but not part of it, for a kind of protection, when they had previously wavered entering such a dangerous environment alone, or in a small group, hoping to seek their fortune in some way ?

I'm curious, as it would be a good way to introduce characters who wouldn't necessarily be mentioned in any Imperial or Colonial rolls which list all the names of the men in their units, that would allow an element of realism to still exist, with the possibility that there were indeed such individuals 'hanging around' the main column.

Coll
DateReplies
13th August 2005Peter Ewart
Coll

It may depend on what you mean exactly by "new" or unexplored."

Although the British maps of Zululand were rudimentary and few in number in 1879 (and the situation would have been worse without Durnford's contribution) it shouldn't be imagined that Zululand was some sort of virgin territory as far as the white man was concerned.

Far from it. Indeed, traders, explorers and missionaries had entered the country in increasing numbers since the 1820s - Shaka's time - and once Mpande had given them the "green light" in the early 1840s, the white man flooded into Zululand in huge numbers. The heyday of this influx for the trader and explorer (when game was still very plentiful) was the 1840s and 1850s, and by the 1870s Zululand was crawling with traders, explorers, missionaries and Boer farmers.

"Military" maps may have been in short supply but many of these white inhabitants and passers-through knew parts of the country and its population very well indeed. By the first half of 1878, Zululand was chock full of white men and their families - not just Boers and British but German, Norwegian and Swedish, including some extensive communities. The very considerable former American presence in Zululand was by then limited to coastal Natal, but only because of the diminished size of Zululand compared with a generation or so earlier.

As it happens, the inevitability (in their minds) of war between Zululand and the British led to the evacuation from that country of virtually every missionary of whichever nationality between late 1877 and mid-1878 and a large number of traders did the same. One or two missionaries held on (as well as the German settlement at Luneburg for instance) to chance their luck, and one or two slipped in or went back (e.g. Smith & Robertson) with the invasion force and it seems many influential missionaries had looked forward to - and even promoted - the war. At the conclusion of hostilities they returned as fast as they could practically do so, and traders, too, were quick to return, but they all found life rather difficult during the subsequent civil war. It should be remembered that the events of the 1880s produced more profound changes than the war of 1879, the military defeat of that year notwithstanding.

As far as adventurers or explorers (traders?) inflitrating with, or following in the wake of, the invasion force, there were certainly traders/border agents/adventurers who advised the British on routes, enemy strengths and possible "friendly" Zulus, as well as attaching themselves to the various columns but I doubt if their numbers were significant compared with the substantial white "population" of Zululand pre-1878.

I suppose two of the more prominent adventurer/traders who did become involved were Vijn (although not with a column, quite the opposite!) and Drummond, who had published a book on his sport in pre-war Zululand but who was killed in the aftemath of Ulundi serving as a British officer.

Not sure whether this properly answers your question about explorers entering Zululand under the protection of one of the columns, but very many men had, over the years, already previously entered and re-entered the country on a regular basis "to seek their fortune" without the need for protection as it was never - or rarely - the "dangerous environment" you suggest. Indeed, it was Zulu society itself, through their King, who afforded them this very protection.

Peter
14th August 2005Coll
Peter

Thankyou for your highly detailed reply.

I must admit I was surprised (yet delighted) to get so much information to a topic which was really just to do with a screenplay storyline idea.

However, I will try and continue the theme considering the information supplied.

Therefore, would Zululand not have been considered a dangerous place for any white man to be after the British had crossed the Buffalo river at the start of the campaign ?

Also, there may have been adventurers who had not considered Africa (Zululand) before, to seek their fortune, until made aware of the impending British invasion and inevitable war, which seemed to be an ideal opportunity.

I guess I'm also remembering the U.S. - Indian Wars, when civilian types entered areas of indian territory, considered sacred or as only belonging to the indians, seeking gold, hunting buffalo, etc., even after warnings from authorities or military posts, but had ignored them, holding onto the thought the U.S. Cavalry would still give them protection.

A couple of film titles which should give an idea of the direction I'm going in -

The Wild Bunch
Three Kings
Kelly's Heroes
The Man Who Would Be King

The theme being, individuals or groups using a war or battle as a 'cover' in order to seek personal gain, but eventually ending up involved in the conflict themselves.

The examples given in these films I know sort of deal with ex-soldiers, or mercenary types, but I like 'Adventurers' as a description, as it seems to 'conjure up' 19th Century images of men wandering strange lands 'looking' for their 'place in life'.

Further to the above, on the same theme, had there not been many rumours of riches to be gained at the King's kraal at Ulundi, which may have appealed to those interested in pursuing such a devious plan to gain personal wealth, even with the risks involved ?

Please understand. This is just ideas for a screenplay, which probably will never be written, but I do find fascinating to research.

Any information supplied with this in mind is much appreciated.

Coll
14th August 2005Peter Ewart
Coll

Zululand a dangerous place for a white man after the invasion had begun? Yes, definitely.

Adventurers who hadn't considered Zululand beforehand were not likely - I'd have thought - to be in that part of South Africa in 1878/9, as Zululand and its possibilties (and problems) were no secret to potential "adventurers" in Natal or the Transvaal.

Those who had NOT considered Zululand (or the rest of Africa) beforehand would presumably have been still in GB or Europe or wherever - and therefore far too late to latch on to one of Chelmsford's columns by the time they heard of the war, or even of the military preparations. Perhaps in time for the May invasion, though?

I see your point but I think reality gets in the way of it a little. But I could be wrong!

Peter

P.S. They would have to have been extremely intrepid. Even if they had entered the country under the protection of the invasion force, once they remained they'd have experienced very, very difficult travelling conditions, as Zululand was not an easy country in which to travel for several decades afterwards.

P.E.
15th August 2005Michael Boyle
Coll,

I seem to recall some participants in the battle at Ulundi expressing regret that there was so little of value to be found. (And surprise that King Cetshwayo owned a 'proper' house with windows and everything !)

The amaZulu were not of course a 'rich' people by western standards then, or now. The nearest they had to 'western' wealth was perhaps ivory and there were precious few elephants left in Zululand by the late 1870s. I would think that there would be little of interest for an 'adventurer' there at the time. (Except for Alan Quartermain of course!)

Best

Michael
15th August 2005Coll
Michael

Thanks for your reply.

Yes. Although I remember reading in one of my AZW books there definitely was a strong rumour of great wealth to be found.

I'm wondering if it was just that 'a rumour' or started deliberately as some sort of 'incentive' for to get to Ulundi first and claim anything of value for themselves.

However, I can't be sure.

As I still focus most of my attention on the main interests I have within the AZW, I'm sure I recall reading about the King's 'house' and actually found myself feeling disappointed this was the case, for no other reason than the fact you build up in your mind what to expect at the King's kraal. (possibly the Imperial and Colonial men did the same and that is how the rumour started)

Coll
15th August 2005Coll
Further to the above.

Sometimes a rumour is enough to get an adventurer's interest, possibly not even to do with the King's kraal and it's contents, but myths and legends. For example, probably stories around that time and before, telling of areas in the world, where you could find handfuls of diamonds or pick up gold nuggets off the ground, etc. Mostly being 'word of mouth' and you know how these sort of tales end up being exaggerated each time they are told.

Or more recently, Indiana Jones types looking for the Lost Cities of Gold or the Holy Grail.

This gives an idea how something doesn't have to actually exist, but some people believe in it so much, they go searching and in many cases end up losing their lives.

Coll
15th August 2005Michael Boyle
Coll,
You do have a point, they wouldn't have been disappointed if they hadn't had high expectations. Perhaps with the discovery of gold and diamonds elsewhere in South Africa many could have speclulated there would be a goodly stash at Ulundi, based on rumour. Of course with all the European visitors who had been to Ulundi in all the years prior to the war it would have to be held that it was a great secret none the less.

It would seem that any 'adventurers' could easily have avoided Lord Chelmsford's vedettes but it would be much more difficult to avoid the Zulu's!

MAB
15th August 2005Coll
Michael

Individuals of the mindset to intrude upon and steal from the Zulu people, would, I guess, also be of the thinking that while the Zulus were pre-occupied 'dealing with' the British Columns, a small group of adventurers could sneak 'under the radar' (if you know what I mean) and avoid the impis intent on engaging the British forces in battles to halt their advance into their homeland, possibly leaving areas nearer to Ulundi less defended, or at least, protected by a more depleted Zulu force, the main army having already departed.

All just guesswork, but it is better to try and make it a bit more convincing.

However, as the AZW is a real event, exciting and fascinating in itself, it really is hard to think of a way to introduce new elements as an additional storyline.

I'm quite sure this may manage to 'mix in' with the true historical facts, without causing too much annoyance to avid AZW enthusiasts.

Although, this will probably be the screenplay that never was !

Thanks again

Coll
15th August 2005Rich
Coll:
Speaking of "being under the radar", I'm sure old Chelmsford could've used a guy like Sir Richard Burton, the remarkable Victorian adventurer to visit and report on the inhabitants of "kraal country". Too bad he couldn't slink in, I'm sure old Chelmsford would've picked up a couple of good Burtonian nuggets to bridge the cultures. ;-)..
15th August 2005John Young
Coll,

How about a war correspondent?

John Y.
15th August 2005Coll
Rich and John

Thanks for your replies.

Yes. It was when I found out about Col. Francis Younghusband in a previous topic and the fact that he was known as The Last Imperial Adventurer, I thought any new characters could be this kind of individual, as I do like the idea of adventurers.

Also, a War Correspondent would be like our witness to link any events within the military environment, as he may have the ability to move about the area quite freely.

There is a way to sort of match invented situations and real events. For example, the reason, maybe, that the British and Colonial troops didn't find anything of value at the King's kraal, is because my guys already nicked it !

The above is just to show an aspect can be added, but doesn't change any part of the true story.

Coll
16th August 2005Dawn
Coll
Does an adventurer have to be British?
I see him as a Boer renegade who would have been after the King's cattle. That's where the 'treasure' was. He could easily slip in as a volunteer or interpreter and walze off with the kings valuables. He'd be more likely to know if there was treasure with the Boer network passing info on. Just another idea from another wanne be.
Dawn
16th August 2005Peter Quantrill
Treasures to be found at oNdini? "Zulu Vanquished" covers the subject.
The object of advancing to oNdini after the battle of Ulundi, was to burn the Royal ikhanda.The cavalry, having rested, were given the order by Chelmsford to torch oNdini which lay a mile to the east of the British square.
A group of officers that included Buller, Beresford, Milne, Baker, Dawnay, interpreter Drummond, together with civilians Archibald Forbes and Melton Prior, accompanied by numerous cavalry started the mile long dash.
Beresford was accredited with being the first to arrive by dint of hurdling the palisade, thereafter being known as " Ulundi Beresford."
Baker ( Baker'sHorse) however, was the first to reach the private quarters of King Cetshwayo. The hope of finding hidden treasures quickly evaporated as a locker standing in the corner of the room was kicked open to reveal an assortment of various newspapers and magazines dating back many years, including the Illustrated London News, Times, and Graphic. Included in the illustrations were pictures of the marriage of the Prince of Wales.
Buller then ordered Tomasson to torch the Royal ikhanda, thus symbolising the destruction of the old Zulu Order.
As an aside,Cetshwayo, influenced by John Dunn, had constructed a European styled house for his personal use at oNdini known as "indlu mnyana" or " black house" from materials supplied by the missionary, Ommund Ofterbro.
In any event anything of value at oNdini was moved on Cetshwayo's orders a day or so before the battle by his isiGodlo girls and carried to the Hlopekhulu Mountain, three miles from the capital and lowered by ropes to deep caves. The operation was supervised by his men-servants, who, in due course, looted the caves following Cetshwayo's incarceration. Certainly no gold recorded.
16th August 2005Peter Ewart
Coll

I don't know about "adventurers" moving about the country unhindered or "quite freely", but they certainly couldn't have moved about unnoticed, as news of everything that went on in all corners of the country reached Cetshwayo within hours. It is unconceivable that a party of whites, whether of one or a dozen, could have entered and travelled within Zululand during the war without being monitored at every step. Even visitors before 1879, in peaceful times, were frequently known about before they arrived at their destination.

Cetshwayo would have had a large store of gifts received from white visitors over the years, ever since his days as heir apparent - but most of these were clothes, rugs and other fabrics, as well as gadgets such as magnifying glasses, compasses and watches and the odd bible and book, accepted from traders and missionaries over a quarter of a century. (And guns of course!) Dabulamanzi kaMpande's store of treasures was legendary and was seen by one or two whites, the culmination of his many years of trading, bartering and hunting with Europeans, as well as from blatant begging. Before that, Dingaan's collection had a wonderful reputation and was also seen - sometimes only briefly - by visiting traders and missionaries. But all these "treasures" had little intrinsic value to Europeans.

There may have been rumours of gold after about 1870 but the story of gold digging in Zululand was one of ever growing frustration, from the 1880s to well into the 20th century. Many districts - including around Isandlwana & Hlazakhazi, as well as a number of very remote locations along the Tugela valley - were prospected to a greater or lesser degree, but ultimately with little success. The stories of losses, hardship and failure in the 30 years following the AZW in these districts are many.

As Dawn has said, the wealth in Zululand was always in cattle ownership, especially before the devastation of the herds in the 1890s.

Peter
16th August 2005Peter Ewart
Did I really type "unconceivable"? I claim the proximity of the "u" and the "i" on the keyboard as my excuse for that howler!

PE
16th August 2005Coll
Dawn

I think the 'expedition' would consist of a combination of nationalities, to allow a variety of characters to be introduced.

A British adventurer(s) has to be included (possibly as expedition leader) as part of the whole story, as I want him/them to face a kind of dilemma. Flee Zululand with any riches he/they discovered, or remain loyal to his/their country and stay to help fight the Zulus.

Remember The Wild Bunch ? Although not exactly the same, do you recall that they did obtain an element of wealth, but when it came down to chosing between this and their friend, they chose loyalty to the friend, resulting in their inevitable death, involving themselves in a fight they could have avoided.

Peter Quantrill

So, the possibility of a storyline like this could exist, remaining true to some of the facts known about 'treasure' belonging to the King ?

The idea of such 'wealth' although not to do with gold, diamonds, etc., could end up being exaggerated (as mentioned previously) by rumours, attracting the interest of individuals seeking financial gain, no matter the danger.

The description you give of hiding belongings in deep caves etc., does give something an 'adventurous feel' to this type of story, as it would be basing many details on truth.

Peter Ewart

The mention of the War Correspondent moving around quite freely, was meaning within the confines of a military environment, such as the camp at Isandlwana, to link scenes between officers, soldiers, etc., without really questioning too much why a certain individual was here, or why another was there, to try and avoid getting too caught up in exact details. An introduced character like this being our witness (as in what he sees, we see) or to connect one scene to another as he moves around the area.

I guess, to allow the 'expedition' to move around, even when monitored by Zulu scouts, there has to be an aspect, such as the lack of threat from this group of white people, or possibly they are known to (friendly) with the Zulus, who are unaware of the the group's true intentions.

This topic is starting to get into the territory of moving from real events, facts, to an additional storyline, where a bit of open-mindedness (is that the right word) allows the reader to accept the new characters inclusion into the campaign as it happened.

Additionally, I would have liked the characters to be caught up in the battle at Isandlwana and possibly Rorke's Drift, but that would mean their story would have to start at the beginning and they were in the process of leaving Zululand when 'running into' either the Zulu army, or the British No.3 Column.

I've got to concentrate on this additional story and on completion, merge it into the events of these two battles, to maintain the element of 'realism', giving the 'expedition' characters reasons for being in Zululand in the first place, instead of just throwing them in 'at the deep end' out of nowhere, with no background information, or character development.

It is a struggle, but still only a fascinating pastime connected to my main interest.

Thankyou all

Coll
16th August 2005Paul Cubbin
Peter - I believe the excitement of the third Test combined with your disappointment at the English fielding may have unsettled your typing.
Coll and Dawb - if you want to see a successful writer deal with historical issues in the period we are debating then you should look no further than Wilbur Smith. Off the top of my head, 'Men of Men' and 'When the Lion Feeds' are probably going to be the best choices but most of the 'Courtney' books would suffice. In a nutshell, he cheats. Yup, Wilbur just makes stuff up. Want a white man to travel undetected? No problem, just team him up with a Bushman guide and Robert's your mother's brother. He does have a habit of annoying academic researchers but hell, he's pretty successful with it.
16th August 2005Peter Ewart
Paul

"Unsettled"? I'm afraid it's a lot worse than that! I thought I was about to undergo collective heart failure along with the rest of the country - and twice in eight days!!!

Not a shred of disappointment though, unless with the usual Manchester weather, which was the real culprit this time. Quite the contrary - like everyone else, I'm utterly invigorated by this terrific battle of wills. Hats off to the Oz rearguard both times, it's what you'd expect, and it takes two sides to make a great Ashes series - but I reckon they now have as much chance of reversing the tide of events (or the march of history?) as Canute did of halting the waves ...

To use a couple of hackneyed metaphors, the boot is now finally and firmly on the other foot and the English hand will not be released from that throat until the job is done. Talking of throats, after Lord's I stuck my neck out and forecast 4-1 (the only one who did, while others suggested 0-5?) but after the rain came to the rescue I'll just have to accept 3-1.

Hope our friends Down Under don't mind my little prediction - it makes a change from England praying for rain! And even my email corresponence from Oz today agrees with me - something I never, ever thought I'd experience!

Coll, apologies for getting slightly off your subject, but I do have an excuse and can actually claim a (rather tenuous) link - there is a young man from Pietermaritzburg mixed up in all this, isn't there, so we're not too far off-topic!

Peter
16th August 2005Coll
Paul

I would like to get as much 'realism' as I can in any event of me writing a screenplay.

In saying that, I've just read the Empire film magazine and apparently 'Bollywood' have made a movie called 'The Rising' which is about the Indian Mutiny and as you can imagine there are sections in it where they do song-and-dance routines !

So, you never know....

Coll
16th August 2005Dawn
Paul
I must have read all the Wilbur Smith books before I was 20 but haven't read one since. Maybe I grew up. (I'm know fans are going to have me for that!) You're right, he does twist the truth but that doesn't stop him from selling lots of books. I'm with Coll, don't muck up the essential facts that can be proved but play around with the non-essentials that could or couldn't happen.
Coll
Sounds like you're getting together the groundwork for a great screenplay. I'm disappointed that the American film industry makes so many films about wars they took part in and choose to ignore everything else. Is there an American film of the Crimean War, or AZW, or the Napoleonic War? The Charge of the Light Brigade must have been such a heart-stopping moment and yet I've not seen this on film. (Or maybe it has, can anyone put me right?) Does anyone want to start a film company? Only joking!
Dawn
17th August 2005Dawn
Coll
PS There's room in this screenplay for a woman, isn't there? A smart and witty woman who knows how to handle a gun. Not a Victorian maiden who swoons at the first sight of a naked heathen. I know there is, isn't there?
Dawn
17th August 2005Paul Cubbin
Dawb - I can't remember if it was the 60's or 70's but look for the confusingly titled film 'The Charge of the Light Brigade', I believe it may touch on the subject you wanted!

Hmm, yes, ol' Wilbur does have a tendency to seem a little, well, silly, after the teenage years are done. Lately he seems to have slipped into the habit of questionable taste with some disturbing sex scenes.

Peter - yes, England have improved much over the last couple of seasons but are now in unexplored territory. From now on it's heart and the top three inches that count (or four if they're wearing helmets).
17th August 2005Coll
Dawn

There is a chance that having a woman in the group might make them seem less threatening to the Zulu scouts.

However, I'm not exactly sure what the Zulus thought of white women, as in, if they attacked the group, would they try and kill her also, or would that be somehow against their beliefs ?

As you can tell. I haven't really considered the inclusion of a woman. Although a bit of 'eye-candy' surely couldn't do any harm.

I'll think about it.

Coll
17th August 2005Dawn
Paul,
Yes, 'The Charge of the LIght Brigade' ,made in 1968, with Vanessa Redgrave and John Gielgud amongst others. Must get my hands on a copy. Is it any good?
Coll
Did you know that the volunteers recruited into Chelmsford's army were promised farms in the conquered Zululand. Wouldn't that be good cause to get in after the invading army and claim a piece of 'paradise'?
Dawn
17th August 2005Coll
Regarding a film about the Charge of the Light Brigade. Was there not another version starring Errol Flynn ?

Dawn

Still on the idea about treasure. How about rumours circling of a 'Golden Shield of the Zulu' full-size and studded with diamonds ?

That is the sort of story I'm sure would 'get around' after several exaggerations of the true 'treasure' were talked about.

It certainly would get attention.

Coll
17th August 2005Coll
Hey !

Even without a script maybe I could sell the 'idea' of a storyline to a film company !

What do you think ?

Coll
17th August 2005Peter Ewart
Coll

The Zulu spent the 19th century slaughtering women and children in their thousands - tens of thousands? - black & white. No, such a pastime certainly wasn't contrary to their beliefs.

Peter
17th August 2005Coll
Peter

Would the possibility of Zulu warriors harming or killing white women or girls still have happened under King Cetshwayo's rule ?

I apologise for being a bit unsure about this point, but I can't recall any accounts of something like this taking place.

Maybe, rather than because of beliefs, but instructions from Cetshwayo himself, specifically forbidding any harm to befall white women found on Zulu territory.

Coll
17th August 2005Paul Cubbin
Dawb - the film was your run-of-the-mill war epic in glorious technicolour from memory. It is pretty spectacular with a lot of great 'stiff upper lips' and a general story that drifts close to the facts as they are known. I once read a completely unbiased biography of Cardigan and could not believe the incompetence and stupidity of the man. In the instance of the 'charge', however, he does appear to be just one small cog in the giant machine of error that caused it.
It's a pity, really, since the Light Brigade always overshadows the amazing Charge of the Heavy Brigade (led by the elderly Sir James Scarlett) that broke the enemy cavalry despite charging uphill at the canter and being massively outnumbered. Sir Colin Campbell didn't do so badly, either, with the 'Thin Red Line'.

Coll - yup, the old B&W version is so cheesy you could serve it with biscuits and a glass of port. Errol Flynn flashes his teeth in an attempt to dazzle those pesky Indians/Russians and generally save mankind whilst waxing his face and pencilling in a moustache.
As for the whole 'white women' thing, I'm not convinced that Zulus had the same chivalric notions as Western societies. A women in Zululand was simply an inferior member of the society and as such was deemed rather less valuable than cattle in most cases. A white woman may have caused comment, even envy, but probably no more mercy than a white man.
17th August 2005Sean Sweeney
I doubt whether any instruction from Cetewayo would have curbed any savage bloodlust in those circumstances.
Many Boer and Bantu families of women and children had been massacred with the assegai during preceding years.
I wouldn't want to be found anywhere near any of the AZW battlefields if I was a woman, although I'm sure there are plenty of females about who could handle themselves as good as any 'bloke' !
(Having competed against a few on shooting ranges around the World)
The British/Colonials wouldn't have entertained having their women anywhere near the border. i.e. Witt and his daughter at RD at that late stage were pure fiction.
The Boer families in their corner of N.Natal (Tvl) probably felt a little safer, although it is once again a dangerous occupation in KZN and S.Africa, given their isolation.
I'm not aware of any white women/children casualties in AZW.
Although back to Witt, Dawn, if they had taken a wrong turn and ended up at Isandhlwana, this might bring them into your scenario.
She was blonde too from memory, so this might explain !
But finding a smart AND witty woman to play the part, now that's a big ask !!!
Sean
17th August 2005Dawn
Coll
The golden shield sounds a great idea. Ties in with your title too. With gold in the Transvaal (had it been discovered yet?) and diamonds in the OFS, it could have been given to Cetswayo as a bribe for a piece of that disputed territory by a really keen Boer.
Further, to the women angle, there were battalions of Zulu maidens as well, did you know? What their function was, I'm not too clear. I'm sure that Zulus would have not hesitated attacking an invading force just because there were women in it. Colonial women were a tough bunch who could handle a gun if necessary and if a white womean was firing at them, I'm sure Zulus would fight back.
Maybe we should collaborate? That will balance things up nicely!
Dawn
18th August 2005Peter Ewart
Coll

White women were safe in Zululand before the AZW. They weren't physically attacked but there were numerous instances of converts or potential converts being forcibly dragged from them & taken away to be harmed and, in a coupe of cases, murdered. There were also cases where they felt threatened and frightened, but usually when harbouring or protecting Zulus.

When Cetshwayo's force, having just put to death thousands of men, women and children in a bloody hour or two at Ndondakasuka were on their triumphant homeward journey, he ordered them to make a detour around the home of Mrs Samuelson, because he had learned that she was not well and didn't want to disturb her!

From the mid-1870s, they did tend to get a bit edgy, however. But none (nor their menfolk) were harmed. You will not have come across any accounts of white women killed by Zulu forces in 1879 because there were no white women left in the country, other than the families up near the Swazi border, who laagered their church for nine months & were protected by German soldiery during a lengthy siege-like existence.

As for black women and children - they probably died in as a great number as men in Cetshwayo's time before 1879 (including his king-elect period). "Eating up" a homestead didn't stop with the slaughter of the men only.

The massacring of large numbers of white women and children in disputed areas such as Weenen a couple of generations earlier were still fresh in colonists' minds, hence the hurried fortification of Maritzburg in January 1879.

Had Zulu forces encountered a woman combatant among the invasion force in 1879 (what a bizarre thought!) she could have expected identical treatment to the men.

Peter
18th August 2005Dawn
Thank you, Peter. Thats what I say too.

Coll,
I rest my case!
How about a woman posing as a man? Although difficult to keep a secret in those conditions. However, wasn't there a woman at about the turn of the 19th century who did just that? She was found out in the end but she carried it off for a while, even got 'married'. I can't remember all the details. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
Dawn
18th August 2005Dawn
Found the info.
Dr James Barry, born 1795, died 1865 and then discovered to be a woman. Served as surgeon in the British Army.
Now Alan's going to sweep in and tell me I'm off topic.
Dawn
18th August 2005Coll
Hmmm....hasn't this topic swayed off-course ?

Sean

Thanks for your reply. The last 2 sentences were excellent.

Peter

Thankyou. Your detailed replies to this topic are very much appreciated.

Dawn

I'm not sure about that concept, however, as the territory of Zululand was a pretty rough environment, I would imagine any female in the group would have to adapt by wearing similar clothing to the men, rather than actually posing as a man.

Therefore, wearing a wide-brimmed hat, riding breeches, long coat (duster-type ?), would help conceal her identity, especially from Zulu scouts observing from a distance away.

I guess that could work.

You did raise an interesting point in your previous posting, about Zulu women (female warriors ?)

We have been discussing the fact that Zulu warriors probably wouldn't hesitate killing white women or girls, but my question is this -

If the British soldiers were confronted by Zulu 'warrior women', would they hesitate ?

Think about it. These Imperial men were trained to fight men in battle, so you would have to consider their thoughts in this type of situation. Could they kill women, even if they were armed ?

I heard a cracking line in a film recently.

" Soldiers deserve soldiers "

Obviously, (Zulu warriors are considered a worthy opponent), but this comment does raise an issue. Again, with the training they had, could British soldiers kill female warriors at the time of the AZW ?

Coll
18th August 2005Peter Ewart
Coll

But there weren't any, nor would there have been any, so the question doesn't arise.

P.
18th August 2005Paul Bryant-Quinn

Peter

Actually the question does arise. Ellis Evans (aka 1933 Charles Roberts, 4th (King's Own)) Regiment, stationed near Luneburg, gives a detailed account of a Zulu raiding party which attempted with partial success to steal his company's transport cattle, and which were driven off by gunfire. He notes with surprise that the impi, a force of some hundreds, comprised women as well as men: presumably he was able to tell the difference.

I would of course agree with you that no female ibutho took the field against Allied forces during the AZW, but Evans' testimony is interesting, implying that some women may have been prepared to be involved in such activities as livestock raiding.

Paul

18th August 2005Sheldon Hall
Paul C's memory must be playing tricks with regard to THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE (1968 version). Far from a typical 'run-of-the-mill' war epic with stiff upper lips galore it is an anti-war, anti-military, anti-establishment satire of the Victorian army ethos: not very subtle, but it could hardly be mistaken for traditional Hollywood fare. It is available on DVD from the BFI with an earlier film version of the Charge (made c. 1913, I think) as an extra. The print of the 1968 film is slightly abridged, however; seek out the BFI's earlier VHS edition with an extra 10 mins for the complete film.

The 1936 Errol Flynn version (set almost entirely in colonial India, with an abrupt change of location for the Crimean climax) is available as a Region 1 DVD, individually or as part of a box set of Flynn movies. There are other films dealing with the Napoleonic wars, some of them at least partly American: the 1956 version of WAR AND PEACE and the 1970 WATERLOO were both European productions with some US money. The 4-part version of WAR AND PEACE made by the Soviet Union between 1965 and 1968 was claimed at the time to have cost $100 million, which (with inflation taken into account) would make it by far the most expensive movie ever made (and Holywood had nothing to do with it). It too is available as a Region 1 DVD box set.

Films about Napoleonic-era sea battles and Victorian colonial conflicts (esp. in India) are almost too numerous to mention, so browsing a good reference book is recommended!
18th August 2005Peter Ewart
Paul

That's interesting. Those Welsh papers continue to yield fascinating detail, and will do yet, I'm sure. I suppose it would be facile of me to suggest they were probably Mbelini's Swazis rather than Zulus, and that Ellis may have been able to tell the difference between a woman and a man, but may not have been able to distinguish between a Zulu and a Swazi party - although that might just be splitting hairs, so I won't! :)


The fact remains that the British invasion forces were not confronted by enemy female soldiers and nor were they likely to be, and vice versa. I believe there are accounts of women marching with the Zulu force which eventually attacked Isandlwana, just as there were young boys.

The chief British reaction to contact with the local families seems to have been (a) preventing their African allies from following their preferred policy of bloodshed, (b) destroying their homes and grain, which left them helpless in the winter of 1879 and (c) in the celebrated case of Bindon Blood, following a particularly non-belligerent policy with the local young ladies, although I don't know if there has ever been any proof of this!!!

Peter
18th August 2005Paul Bryant-Quinn

Peter

Split as many hairs as you like, my friend. Hand on heart, I don't know whether the impi which skirmished with Ellis's B coy were Mblilini's Swazis, Manyonyoba's Swazis, passing Zulus or some people else altogether. Both Ellis and Woodgate thought they were Zulus on their way to join a larger force, but as you say, they were unlikely to know the difference.

Your reference to women marching with the main impi is interesting - I wonder whether the uDibi comprised girls as well as boys in 1879?

Paul
18th August 2005Coll
Dawn

You probably have already considered this.

On another topic we were discussing visual as well as musical inspiration when writing a book or screenplay.

I found that obtaining Osprey titles of this era, 1879 and earlier (obviously), helped build up an image of the clothing characters would wear, including weapons they would use.

I'm not talking about just from the AZW, but the U.S. and Europe around that time, combining different items of clothing from various sources to construct a character's appearance.

However, I did consider having veterans of the American Civil War making their way over to Africa in the early-mid 1870s to pursue a 'new' life, hopefully remembering to bring repeating rifles with them and possibly other weapons usually associated with the U.S., to give additional 'variety' to characters, with their 'own' story of why they were there.

Additionally, I don't mean they were still wearing the uniforms from that conflict. (before anyone points it out)

Coll
18th August 2005Paul Cubbin
Paul BQ - you may be right, its some years since I saw the film (and I would have been only in my teens then) so perhaps the broader message has passed me by.

As for question of women warriors; I will bypass my usual answer that they wouldn't have been any good since they run funny and can't throw properly (snigger) and move on to more serious matters. In history, where women have deliberately been armed by a government (as opposed to irregulars) it has usually been for one of two reasons, either desperation (WW2 Russia springs to mind) or to form a bodyguard. In the second case, it has been theorised that women form a much closer bond to the figure they are meant to protect and are thus super-loyal guards. Often the women were daughters of the 'principal' who could be guaranteed to fight to the death with feral savagery rather than retreat.
18th August 2005Mike McCabe
There's not much that a determined woman cannot do.
Some of the above remarks could even be life threatening taken the wrong way by the right sort of woman - or vice versa even?
MC McC
18th August 2005Coll
Paul

Going by your mention of 'super-loyal guards', does give an idea.

How about Zulu Warrior Women protecting the 'Golden Shield of the Zulu' at the caves near Ulundi, while the main Zulu army prepared to confront the British forces ?

Admit it guys. You can't help but visualise adventurers finding warrior women (Amazon-types) guarding the King's belongings.

What a fight that would be !

Coll
18th August 2005Dawn
Coll
Now you're thinking right! Women guarding the shield would work really well. A bit of 'eye candy' for you guys.
Paul
Watch it, mate. We women can shoot straight, see Sean's reply previous. Also women will fight fiercely for something they have an emotional attachment to, so would ties in with your comment on feral savagery. Perhaps Coll could use this for his warrior women guarding the shield. Although not sure what would be the emotional attachment to a shield.
Not sure about girl udibi boys (its a contradiction in terms anyway) but I wouldn't think so. Although there may have been woman following the army to provide food etc although I don't think they ate much after the cleansing ceremonies. The boys would have had to eat though.
I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a battalion of women but they probably stayed close to the Ulundi. (Guarding the sheild!)
Dawn
19th August 2005Coll
Dawn

Description of the 'Golden Shield of the Zulu'

The whole shield represents Zululand.

a. The use of gold to represent the sun.
b. The diamonds being the Zulu people.
c. The shape of a shield to protect the Zulu nation.

So, a shield that protects the Zulu nation, like a mother protects her child or children.

This could be the emotional connection for Zulu women to be the 'Guardians of the Shield'.

I just thought this up. Will it do ?

Coll
19th August 2005Dawn
Coll
Yeah, great, relate it to children and you've got a winner. A decree from the king to protect the shield unto death would do as an order from a father figure. The two together would create a force of women to be reckoned with.
Dawn
PS: Shouldn't we do this off-line? We're getting off topic.
19th August 2005Paul Cubbin
Coll, if you're looking to broaden your understanding of symbolism with regards to the sun, try James Frazer's 'The Golden Bough'. I read it years back and have never got round to buying a copy of my own, but it is basically a study of human beliefs and customs. Also, while we're on the subject of books, Rider Haggard wrote 'The Tale of Isandhlwana' after the disaster. He knew Durnford well and presumably (never read it myself) this will give a good insight into the mind of the man and how Haggard thinks he would have reacted.

Dawb, chortle. I am well versed in the savagery of women, being a fan of women's rugby. The ever-increasing skill levels and speed aside (although they still don't tackle properly) I have never seen such a spectacle of unbridled aggression and bloodlust in my life.
19th August 2005Coll
Dawn

We're not too far off-topic, as in, we're still talking about Zulus, etc., apart from the fact of trying to create a storyline involving a 'myth' about a 'golden shield hidden in caves and protected by warrior women', although based on true events.

If you follow the discussion you will see there have been questions asked and answers kindly supplied to specific areas of interest within this topic that cover real people, situations, or incidents.

Also, this topic 'contains' all these aspects, rather than starting dozens of new topics each asking a question about something mentioned here. So, I think it is preferable for both us and site visitors to hold all or most information concerning a novel or screenplay ideas by involving only a very few topics, to prevent any annoyance to anyone who may object to us straying a little bit too far from the Anglo-Zulu War 1879.

Also, the suggestion of a golden shield and elements connected to it are part of the 'myth' created by rumours started by 'word of mouth' that drew my adventurers to Zululand and encouraged them to form an 'expedition' to seek it at the time of the British war with the Zulus in 1879.

Again, the detailed story above about the shield, etc., are the myth, but the true events will be somewhat more different and 'realistic'.

In many ways the story can't become too far-fetched, or it definitely wouldn't merge well with the battle at Isandlwana.

Remember, this story, which I'm hoping to maintain with a 'real' and 'dark' feel to it, will need to interact with the historical events, which also will portray the true story with more drama and 'realistic' battle scenes, rather than a rip-roaring adventure.

The concern is, if you make the adventurers storyline too 'light' and unrealistic, it would affect the feeling of the events at Isandlwana in such a way, that the film would feel all over the place.

It is essential that the whole film is a solid and 'realistic' telling of a story, acknowledging the participants and dramatic events at Isandlwana, but with an additional storyline of adventurers seeking a mythical shield.

The film 'has' to be dark and gripping, rather than lighthearted and hard to believe.

Do you see what I mean ?

Coll

PS. Why go off-site ? We're really just having a chat.

PS. (again) Paul, I'm not sure I recall seeing 'The Tale of Isandlwana' mentioned before. However, I must confess I ain't really looked.

Can anyone supply details about this title's contents ?

Thankyou

Coll
19th August 2005Mike McCabe
Coll and Dawn, keep at it girls!
I've just found a post that starting off talking about Rorke's Drift/Isandlwana and ended up talking about Japan!
MC McC

19th August 2005Coll
Mike

Afraid you're very much mistaken !

The name of the person appearing on any e-mails off-site ain't me, as it is a family computer.

However, I am the only one who uses it the most.

The name appearing on this site is mine and as you hopefully will know by now, I'm a guy.

I don't think the person who is mentioned on the e-mail would appreciate the AZW, or listen to 'Mars' from the Planets by Gustav Holst !

Coll
19th August 2005Coll
Further to the above.

Just to clarify that any e-mails sent to people off-site are from me !

Coll
19th August 2005Coll
Man, this is confusing.

The messages are from me but there will be a different name alongside the e-mail address.

Does this make any sense ?

Coll
19th August 2005Dawn
Coll
You guys get busy on that side of the world while I'm asleep. I don't know where the impression came in that I wanted it to be 'light-hearted'. Maybe it was the 'eye candy' remark. No, I see it as being a serious screenplay with dark sides to it. Even the women guarding the shield should be menacing rather that just 'eye candy'. i still think that your pack of adventurers should have a woman in it but a tough as nails, dressed in trousers type of woman who would give a guy serious damage if he came near. Just to balance things out, you see.
Mike,
Don't worry, I am a girl. You're 50% right. I think a 'girl' is just what this site needs!
Dawn
20th August 2005Coll
Dawn

You definitely are determined about including a woman in the group, aren't you ?

Okay. How about she lived in Zululand, but left before the impending war with the British. On hearing of an 'expedition' being formed to enter Zulu territory in pursuit of a mythical 'treasure', offered her help, as she knew the country well and spoke fluent Zulu, which would have made her the 'perfect' guide, when trying to avoid 'known' Zulu settlements and places where they could 'set up camp'.

The adventurers really would have to consist of several British men, in order to face the dilemma later in the film, when being in the camp at Isandlwana, they witnessed the Zulu army approaching and had the choice whether to go or stay. This is where loyalty to their country would come in and if it was strong enough to make them stay.

However, there could be Boers in the group who possibly knew some of the civilians in camp (wagon drivers, etc.) or who were officers in the N.N.C. companies, and therefore felt the necessity to stay and fight with them.

I can't help but feel that I want to include a British member in the group (ex-British officer, soldier) who, on their way back to Isandlwana, witnesses the Zulu army, but also a few Europeans (mercenary-types) mingling with them.

Enraged. Being a very loyal British ex-soldier, departs from the group after seeing these Europeans split off from the main Zulu army, as it approached the Isandlwana camp, his intention being to hunt, confront and eliminate this additional enemy of the British forces.

A personal quest, perhaps ?

This would give another storyline, as he seeks these men, possibly in the direction of one of the other British Columns.

Coll
20th August 2005Dawn
Coll
Also a woman would maybe have a way to overwhelm the warrior women guarding the shield that the men wouldn't think of. I think it creates a bit of conflict having a woman in the ranks and the men not knowing what to make of her. Do they treat as a lady or just one of the men? Stories have to have conflict and it doesn't have to be the fighting kind of conflict.
Don't know about the white mercenaries. Why would you fight with the Zulus and would the Zulus want a white man in their midst? I think he'd be more of an advisor in the Dunn tradition but maybe a bit more militant. Mercenaries with a personal vendetta against the British perhaps? Maybe the one who paid for his/their land with the golden sheild and now the British want to take it away from him/them. You couldn't put a white man/men in there without a good reason.
Dawn
20th August 2005Coll
Dawn

On a previous topic (your drummer boy one) you will remember I listed a few subjects that I had asked questions about.

Have a look at the topics mentioned and you will see a few replies that might explain something of the way I am thinking, by trying to include several of these aspects.

Anyway, it's 1.45 a.m. so......

Coll
20th August 2005Dawn
Ha, I see. So you covered all those subjects mentioned? And that's a long list too. Sounds like you might have all it all together. When are you going to start, or have you started already? Sometimes I start in what is the climax scene and work backwards. Strange, I know but sometimes easier to go back and write the beginning later when you know where it is you want to go.
Dawn
PS. go to bed!
20th August 2005Dawn
Coll
Further to the above. What if the woman adventurer can help fight the guardians of the sheild because she used to be one! Perhaps one of Dunn's daughers if old enough. Then she'd not only confirm the existence of said shield but lead them to it, although any path to riches is never smooth.
Dawn
20th August 2005Coll
Dawn

There were quite a few other questions I asked about different aspects connected to the AZW, but also other subjects that may have given me additional ideas. To assist in the creation of characters, their appearance, etc., as well as other elements.

I was thinking along the lines that the shield is not only a myth in real life, but also within the screenplay, so as the adventurers having struggled to get to the identified caves where it is supposed to be hidden - find nothing !

However, they would probably discover the sort of belongings Peter Quantrill slightly covered in his previous posting. Although termed as 'treasure', it was unlikely to be something as spectacular as a golden shield.

At that moment of realisation, the myth becomes a reality, the rumours, the stories, the chance of incredible riches, all are dashed in a most tragic and disheartening fashion.

The expedition possibly already having the number of people in their group depleted after one or more confrontations with small parties of Zulu warriors.

Absolutely dejected, they try to make their way back to the known location of the British No.3 Column, possibly for protection from the warriors pursuing them across the countryside.

Reaching the camp a reasonable period of time before the battle takes place (the night previously) and resting there until the morning where they hoped to either return to the area of Rorke's Drift or possibly 'tag along with' the column, as additional civilian 'combatants'.

In the morning, after Chelmsford's departure and the arrival of Col. Durnford's No.2 Column, the story then moves 'into reality' by including the actual historical figures from that time, the battle at Isandlwana is about to start.

Resigned to the fact they were not going to leave Zululand wealthy men, some decided to take their place alongside the British and Colonial forces and assist in the defence of the camp.

Most of the group would meet their death here and on the trail, the female guide (a Boer ?) managing to escape with one or more from the group, down the Fugitives' Trail. Then on to Rorke's Drift ?

A dramatic end to a group of people pursuing a dream that didn't exist.

Such is life I guess.

Coll
20th August 2005Dawn
Coll
Weren't the Quartermain stories similiar? All on a quest for mythical treasure and returning empty-handed? Not that there's anything wrong with it. King Solomons Mines was my set book at school eons ago. 'She' I read on my own after enjoying KSM. I'm all for a screenplay that deals with Isandlwana from another angle and one that I can see is going to be more focused on characters than events. The adventurers will have the advantage of being able to observe the happenings in the camp without being ordered to take part. Which leads to the moral dilemma of whether to go or to fight and where the true characters come out. I like it. Wouldn't the fact that those adventurers who decide to flee have to be led out by a woman create the impression that they are cowards? Thus our heros are the ones left in camp who suffer the same fate as the rest. I'm not sure if this is your intention but it could be.
Dawn
20th August 2005Coll
Dawn

The whole idea is to create, not only a story of why the group were in Zululand, but why a myth of a golden shield developed as it did, in order for people to believe in it's existence.

Shields were used in battle and also could have a ceremonial purpose - fact.

Myth - A golden shield.

Gold and diamonds were found elsewhere in Africa - fact.

Myth - Shield studded with diamonds.

'Treasured items' rather than actual 'treasure' were hidden in deep caves by Zulu girls - fact.

Myth - The golden shield was hidden in deep caves and guarded by Zulu girls (or warrior women)

Adventurers and those seeking personal gain did exist in the 19th Century, maybe not in Zululand at the time mentioned, but they were around.

The film needs to justify many reasons why viewers could accept such people and events 'may' have happened, in order to believe in the additional story's inclusion.

This way, as mentioned, the new characters can move around and observe a bit more freely.

No. I don't think any adventurers fleeing would be considered cowards, as the sheer mass of warriors entering the camp pushed many of the defenders along the Fugitives' Trail, the woman being a fortunate survivor, aided in her escape by members of the group and possibly the other soldiers, etc.

The true heroes are the men who were really there, the new characters just happened to be involved in a fight they could have avoided, although I would imagine I would give them a courageous death.

The film is mostly about the battle at Isandlwana.

Coll
20th August 2005Dawn
coll
I was dumbing down the female race to suggest the men were cowards because they were being led by a 'girl'. Certainly no one thinks that those fleeing were cowards, least of all me. I've done the Fugitives Trail and it wasn't easy and I wasn't being chased by Zulus. In fact, at one point I said that if I was having to run it, I'd rather give up now and be killed which many of them did, I'm sure.. The Trail is no walk in the park and is even a misnomer for there is no 'trail'. It was the symbolism I was going for, I think. Keep going, Coll. As I'm discovering, its hard work but the story has to be told. Like those on the trail I sometimes think I should give up, but the passion remains and won't go away so I have to carry on. Thankfully the guys on this website are good at replying which is a big help.
Dawn
20th August 2005Coll
Dawn

There are probably some who view this topic and wonder why I don't just go with known participants in the battle at Isandlwana, or add new characters to the No.3 Column itself, without creating another story.

However, the reason I thought to do this, is because the first 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 of the film about the adventurers, would allow us to see areas of the spectacular Zulu landscape that you would not see from the battlefield vicinity, as I feel, if you are going to film in Africa, let everybody 'see' Africa.

Also, it would be a great comparison showing these areas in daytime (obviously) with the cloud-free blue skies. Almost like a 'heaven on earth'.

Then the latter part of the film, being the day of the battle, including the partial eclipse of the sun, demonstrating the above can also become a 'hell on earth', with the brutal fighting and the killing of so many men.

So, there we are. That is the outline of a 'possible' screenplay.

Thanks for your keen interest in this topic and ideas on what to include in the storyline.

As for putting pen to paper ?

Well....you never know.

Coll

PS. That's all folks !
23rd August 2005maga mugu
please i dey hereoooooooooooooooo cheak anther side ok omo you hear me