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Date	Original Topic
21st February 2005	No tomato throwing please... By Kimberly I am doing research on the Zulu nation for a feature film. One of the top guys wants me to find an American connection sometime from the time of Shaka to Cetshwayo. Does anyone know of any Americans who had a sugnificant relationship to the Zulu people during this time period? I am also look for stories about other people who were not British, Boer or Portuguese. I have the story of the Prince Imperial already for the "French Connection". Thanks in advance. K
Date	Replies
21st February 2005	Peter Ewart Kimberly Well, (with the possible exception of Capt Allen Gardiner) the American presence in Zululand preceded the British connection with regard to both gun-running and also missionary contact, Messrs Finn, Owen and Isaacs from England notwithstanding. From 1835 the American connection between Zululand and the white man was stronger than it was to become between Zululand and the British for some few years. The three principal men who will fit your requirements were Aldin Grout, Newton Adams and George Champion, who all left their indelible mark on Zululand (and that part which was soon to become Natal). They also left published memoirs and diaries which will assist your researches for "the top guy." There were other Frenchmen who could claim a stronger link than Prince Louis Napoleon, especially as he didn't even remain in Zululand for more than a few hours when prevented from leaving on his own accord, as it were, and didn't visit the place for more than a few weeks. Still, if you've made your mind up... What about all the Germans, Norwegians, Danes and Swedes? Zululand was packed full of them from the 1840s onwards. Schroeder, Meyer, Engelbrecht, Larssen, Filter, Schermbrucker - and all the arrivals on the famous Debora, for instance? Even Otto Witt the Swede, Adendorff the German and Ferdnand Schiess the Swiss had their "day in the sun." Cetshwayo obviously disliked and mistrusted the Boers but he and his people thought even less of the Germans, whereas he got on with his Norwegians friends at least as well as he did with the British, which was pretty well most of the time. Hope there are a few cosmopolitan pointers in there somewhere. Peter
21st February 2005	Chris Please tell me this WILL NOT be based on "The Last Samuari" where an American goes to Zululand and battles the evil British imperialists.
21st February 2005	Andrew Garton Cheers Chris! I agree with you mate could'nt take a movie like that.Just remember Kim truth is most of the times a better story then fiction.
21st February 2005	Greg Your Darn right Chris, Mell Gibson leads the Zulu onslaught against the evil british imprerialists with a bunch of sympathetic U.S backed boer commandoes led by Arnie.Us Brits lead by Anthony Hopkins as lord C and his side kick crealock played by Gary Oldman.Rewriting history naaah try telling that to someone who worked at Bletchley Park.
21st February 2005	Greg Kimberley,My wife just read what I wrote and says I threw a tomato, Sorry and Goodluck with your project. Greg.
21st February 2005	Coll Kimberly Can you give any more details about the feature film that is being considered ?. Coll
21st February 2005	Peter Ewart Chris/Andrew/Greg Well, I doubt if it's Hollywood calling! I've no idea whether a "feature film" is fact or fiction and one would hope that the research will be undertaken carefully - especially if on behalf of "one of the top guys!" It might be an improvement on some of the books ... I certainly agree that fact (or what is believed to be fact) would be much better than fiction here, as the story is surely colourful enough already. How about a feature film about Cap'n Page & his hearty crew on board the "St Michael"? Americans plundering Africa of ivory before the British had a chance to stop them perpetrating such awful crimes, as well as flogging those duff muskets to the vulnerable natives while planning the first American colony in Natal? Well, that's what he is supposed to have said, isn't it? And all supervised by that Jew from here in Canterbury! Wonderful stuff - scope for some lovely PC and anti-PC themes. And that's before Farewell himself even gets a look in! Kimberly, there is already enough controversial American involvement there to last a lifetime. Make a thriller - but you'd have to tone down even the reality to make it plausible. Of six more determined Americans who arrived in 1835, sent by the American Board, three sped rapidly into the interior - and sped back to the coast again just as fast, unable to face the sight of any more blood. (At least poor Francis Owen was more or less on his own when he decided enough blood was enough, when he left the field to the Yanks!) Well, it's all there Kimberly, and "there's nowt so queer as folks." She (I presume its a "she") only wants "AN American connection" lads, so don't panic - one will do, along with the Scandinavians and all the rest. (Nothing new about the Rainbow Nation - now there's a PC theme!) Not too late for a bit of slavery either. And who to star? Well, there's only one chap who will do if they've got to have someone from the United States, and that's, of course, Fred McMurray every time. Are there any others? Fred McMurray and Dingane - the dream ticket for the box office? Peter
22nd February 2005	Derek C Kimberly..... this is tounge in cheek, no offence intended, but...... What about a movie where the Americans capture the Enigma machine from a German submarine, when in fact it was the Brits'?
22nd February 2005	Peter Ewart Calm down, chaps. It's only a film, a bit of fun no doubt. It's not as if Kimberly's friends are making a book! There was enough 19th century American action in Zululand for her friends not to have to bother to make anything up. Someone has emailed me to say that Fred McMurray is no longer. That's sad - I thought he was in all the American films but I suppose time moves on. OK, Gregory Peck as Page, then. And Anthony Quinn and Raymond Massey as Newton Adams & Aldin Grout, breathing a bit of fire and brimstone. Yul Brynner as Champion, naturally. Kurt Jurgens as Schroeder or Schermbrucker. There's a wonderful, rip-roaring yarn on the way - it's just that the "pesky varmints" will be Zulus instead of Injuns. Peter
22nd February 2005	Julian whybra Why bother researching? It will be 'invented' anyway. Surely, Durnford really WAS Burt Lancaster. Are you really saying that if there was no american involvement the public won't go to see the film?
22nd February 2005	Phil Pearce Poor Kmberley did ye not realise that ye were entering the lions den when ye came here? Any how found a lot of the postings both amusing & informative. I personally would like to see them produce a comedy based strongly on historical fact( usually the best kind . I so enjoy satire ) Russel crow could play the srern Chard Julian clary could play bromhead ( no insult to Bromheads masulinity intended but i can so easily see Mr clary flicking his little fly swatter around ) Margareta Witt portrayed by jennifer Saunders Shame Dick emery is no lnger with us as he would have made a great otto Witt but I suppose Vin Diesel would be equally as comic in this roll. My great grand father could be played by Josh Hartnell , well he's the only actor I can think of of a similar age & who could possibly demonstrate my families hereditary good looks ...LOL.! Hook well i suppose jonny depp Cetewayo has to be Lenny Henry Oooh the list is endless Then we could have a band of intrepid American pioneers ( complete with covered wagons which they form into a circle ) who get caught up in the middle of it all . This merry band could include Sandra Bullock a good actress with an appropriate name for the roll. kevin klien, Whoopi Goldberg,Shelly Long & Steve Martin . Now all that remains is which historical author do we get to get as artistic director......I can think of two ( he he only kidding )
22nd February 2005	Greg I still think a film about prince Imperial from a correspondants view,from his arrival in this country.His training , and depature to zululand and finally his untimely end. And I think jonny Depp would be quite good as the prince.There you go Kimberley theres a film for you. I think we should produce our own film on this forum theres enough knowledge, actors and a host of comedians amongst us.
23rd February 2005	Michael Boyle Kimberly, By your topic title you obviously knew what you were in for! From your post it would seem that you are researching for a film based more on the Zulu from the Zulu perspective as seen through less politically involved eyes as opposed to a remake of "Zulu", "Zulu Dawn",or even "Shaka Zulu". If true, some of the best (and only) advice seems to have come from Peter's missionary leads.Peter 'knows his stuff' there and could probably point you towards more specific sources,some of which you will find in the 'East Indians' thread of 13 Feb. It would seem that any film encompassing the period you allude to would have to deal with the military confrontations inherent, seemingly from the Zulu perspective, an idea that has provoked interest on this site.If so you will find many references toward the little documented Zulu 'side' throughout these pages. Perhaps if you firmly divorce yourself from a re-make of the well loved cinematic icons here you may be able to enlist further help. Best Michael
23rd February 2005	Kimberly Yes guys, I knew what I was in for. I am an American living overseas for the past 5 years. Trust me, I know the sentiments towards my nation. The project is actually an IMAX movie. Yes, based on truth, We are still in begining production phase so I cannot say for sure if it will be made, but hopefully it will. I appreciate all the input. I gives me more places to continue my search. Does anyone know any info about George Cato? He was the U.S. Consulate around 1880? I think he was british, but if there was a need for the Consulate there must have been a need for it. I still need to read all of your replies, and I hope someone has not already mentioned him. Online time is very expensive here in South Africa and I will read all the replies offline. I look forward to anymore input or question any of you have. Thanks again for your help. Kimberly
23rd February 2005	Kimberly Yes guys, I knew what I was in for. I am an American living overseas for the past 5 years. Trust me, I know the sentiments towards my nation. The project is actually an IMAX movie. Yes, based on truth, We are still in begining production phase so I cannot say for sure if it will be made, but hopefully it will. I appreciate all the input. I gives me more places to continue my search. Does anyone know any info about George Cato? He was the U.S. Consulate around 1880? I think he was british, but if there was a need for the Consulate there must have been a need for it. I still need to read all of your replies, and I hope someone has not already mentioned him. Online time is very expensive here in South Africa and I will read all the replies offline. I look forward to anymore input or question any of you have. Thanks again for your help. Kimberly
23rd February 2005	Kimberly Yes guys, I knew what I was in for. I am an American living overseas for the past 5 years. Trust me, I know the sentiments towards my nation. The project is actually an IMAX movie. Yes, based on truth, We are still in begining production phase so I cannot say for sure if it will be made, but hopefully it will. I appreciate all the input. I gives me more places to continue my search. Does anyone know any info about George Cato? He was the U.S. Consulate around 1880? I think he was british, but if there was a need for the Consulate there must have been a need for it. I still need to read all of your replies, and I hope someone has not already mentioned him. Online time is very expensive here in South Africa and I will read all the replies offline. I look forward to anymore input or question any of you have. Thanks again for your help. Kimberly
23rd February 2005	Kimberly Yes guys, I knew what I was in for. I am an American living overseas for the past 5 years. Trust me, I know the sentiments towards my nation. The project is actually an IMAX movie. Yes, based on truth, We are still in begining production phase so I cannot say for sure if it will be made, but hopefully it will. I appreciate all the input. I gives me more places to continue my search. Does anyone know any info about George Cato? He was the U.S. Consulate around 1880? I think he was british, but if there was a need for the Consulate there must have been a need for it. I still need to read all of your replies, and I hope someone has not already mentioned him. Online time is very expensive here in South Africa and I will read all the replies offline. I look forward to anymore input or question any of you have. Thanks again for your help. Kimberly
23rd February 2005	Kimberly Yes guys, I knew what I was in for. I am an American living overseas for the past 5 years. Trust me, I know the sentiments towards my nation. The project is actually an IMAX movie. Yes, based on truth, We are still in begining production phase so I cannot say for sure if it will be made, but hopefully it will. I appreciate all the input. I gives me more places to continue my search. Does anyone know any info about George Cato? He was the U.S. Consulate around 1880? I think he was british, but if there was a need for the Consulate there must have been a need for it. I still need to read all of your replies, and I hope someone has not already mentioned him. Online time is very expensive here in South Africa and I will read all the replies offline. I look forward to anymore input or question any of you have. Thanks again for your help. Kimberly
23rd February 2005	Kimberly Peter, Thank you for your help in giving me further names to research. I appreciate it. Just to clear this up for all of you. The "American" connection is NOT what this film is going to be based on. It is a factual based film. That is where I come into the picture. :-) In regards to the Prince Imperial connection, what makes this connection so amazing ( think anyway ) is that Napoleon Bonaparte and Shaka were somewhat close in age. Shaka was about 16 years younger. The fact that Shaka was called the 'Black Napoleon' and the formation of the Zulu nation under his rule. Both men were history makers. We won't mention their method of making this history. And then comes the Prince Imperial. He was the last blood relative of Napolean Bonaparte and when he died, so died the royal Bonaparte lineage. The end of an empire died with him on June 1. When Cetshwayo was captured on August 28th, that ended the Zulu dynasty. But when it all boils down, the main focus of this IMAX movie will be the Zulus themselves. ************************************************ CHRIS, Absolutely NOT!!! Promise! ************************************************* ANDREW, I agree completely. There is not need to make stuff up when it comes to the Zulus, that is for sure. Who would make up skinning 4, or is it 5, goats alive and letting them wander around a pen to see which one is the strongest to make the new billows for the new blade? Certainly not I!!! ************************************************** GREG, If I could get Mel Gibson on this film I would die a happy woman!!!! :-) No offense taken. My boss does like the Prince Imperial connection. *************************************************** COLL, I hope I shed a little more light for you. *************************************************** DEREK, No comment. ;-) *************************************************** JULIAN, Not I. I only provide my boss with information to pull from. Again, this is not going to be a film about American's , but he would like to show an American connection. And it is not just about America. It is about bringing to the front multiple nations who had an impact on the Zulus as a whole. Hence the Prince Imperial connection and the other missionaries. I don't know what is going to end up in the film, but again, I just want to provide them with interesting, TRUE stories of the Zulu Nation. ******************************************************** MICHAEL, Funny enough, before I left Arizona last June, I saw "Zulu" for the first time. I live in Cape Town and have yet to make it to KZN. I only started this research in January. (God is amazing how He prepares us for what He has in store!!) I can say with all honesty, this will NOT be a remake of "Shaka Zulu", "Zulu" or "Zulu Dawn". Well, I hope I answered all of your questions. If you can offer me further assistance, please let me know. Thanks for you help. Kimberly
23rd February 2005	Kimberly Peter, Thank you for your help in giving me further names to research. I appreciate it. Just to clear this up for all of you. The "American" connection is NOT what this film is going to be based on. It is a factual based film. That is where I come into the picture. :-) In regards to the Prince Imperial connection, what makes this connection so amazing ( think anyway ) is that Napoleon Bonaparte and Shaka were somewhat close in age. Shaka was about 16 years younger. The fact that Shaka was called the 'Black Napoleon' and the formation of the Zulu nation under his rule. Both men were history makers. We won't mention their method of making this history. And then comes the Prince Imperial. He was the last blood relative of Napolean Bonaparte and when he died, so died the royal Bonaparte lineage. The end of an empire died with him on June 1. When Cetshwayo was captured on August 28th, that ended the Zulu dynasty. But when it all boils down, the main focus of this IMAX movie will be the Zulus themselves. ************************************************ CHRIS, Absolutely NOT!!! Promise! ************************************************* ANDREW, I agree completely. There is not need to make stuff up when it comes to the Zulus, that is for sure. Who would make up skinning 4, or is it 5, goats alive and letting them wander around a pen to see which one is the strongest to make the new billows for the new blade? Certainly not I!!! ************************************************** GREG, If I could get Mel Gibson on this film I would die a happy woman!!!! :-) No offense taken. My boss does like the Prince Imperial connection. *************************************************** COLL, I hope I shed a little more light for you. *************************************************** DEREK, No comment. ;-) *************************************************** JULIAN, Not I. I only provide my boss with information to pull from. Again, this is not going to be a film about American's , but he would like to show an American connection. And it is not just about America. It is about bringing to the front multiple nations who had an impact on the Zulus as a whole. Hence the Prince Imperial connection and the other missionaries. I don't know what is going to end up in the film, but again, I just want to provide them with interesting, TRUE stories of the Zulu Nation. ******************************************************** MICHAEL, Funny enough, before I left Arizona last June, I saw "Zulu" for the first time. I live in Cape Town and have yet to make it to KZN. I only started this research in January. (God is amazing how He prepares us for what He has in store!!) I can say with all honesty, this will NOT be a remake of "Shaka Zulu", "Zulu" or "Zulu Dawn". Well, I hope I answered all of your questions. If you can offer me further assistance, please let me know. Thanks for you help. Kimberly
24th February 2005	Michael Boyle Kimberly, An IMAX of the AZW battlefields would be a dream come true for many of us on this forum. Here's hoping you make it to 'in production'! Best Michael
24th February 2005	Mel Gibson Hey guys, what about "ZULU - The Musical" with Leonardo Di Caprio as Chard?
24th February 2005	Greg The Zulu`s would have my backing to wipe the garrison out in that case.
24th February 2005	Peter Ewart Kimberly As you put it that way, the Prince Imperial is not a bad choice. The parallel continues when one considers that Cetshwayo's son, Dinizulu (who was the last of the line to be in any position to claim a realistic allegiance from the Usuthu faction) was, like Napoleon, exiled by the British to St Helena and was familiar with Napoleon's grave. It may not be quite accurate to describe the dynasty as at an end with Cetshwayo, given that the line of Dinizulu, Solomon, Cyprian and now Goodwill Zwelethini has continued (with varying status at times in the eyes of S African law) and that the latter is recognised as King. Peter
24th February 2005	Kimberly Peter, I agree that the Zulu Royalty has not ceased, but the dynasty and power that Shaka created and Cetshwayo tried to re-establish after two blase Kings died with Cetshwayo. Kind of like France is still a country, but its power in the region is no where close to where it was with Napoleon. IMAX movies have a 40 minute limit. You can see the challenge that lies before us. What to put in and what not? Not only that, it needs to be a 'G' rating. Hmmmmmm? Just a bit of a challenge. Just a side note, I only hit enter once with my last two posts. I have no idea why they were posted multiple times like that. I am still looking for those unique TRUE stories I can research. Keep them coming. Kimberly
24th February 2005	Kimberly Peter, Where would I find information about the American gun-runners? Kimberly
24th February 2005	Kimberly Peter, Where would I find information about the American gun-runners? Kimberly
24th February 2005	Peter Ewart Kimberly The period in question, when the Zulu and the white man began to make each other's aquaintance - that is mainly the 1820s and the 1830s - is covered in most decent histories of that period of Zulu history. Each author produces his own version of events (and most of them are relying on very few primary sources, all European, in the form diaries and memoirs, with the exception of the post-1835 American presence, which is heavily documented in other authorities) and you will need to see the unfolding sequence as part of the whole picture of the European (or white) involvement in Zululand and the then Natal, rather than pick out the odd incident. You originally mentioned "doing research on the Zulu nation" which will entail more than extracting a few stories from popular histories, but I'm sure you're aware of that & are prepared to burn some midnight oil. Those publications on the following list will all be widely available in libraries & the more well known used bookshops in RSA & are a mixture of the popular and the scholarly. They all cover the period in question and most relate the affair with regard to Page, the "St Michael", the cargoes of muskets & ivory, just as most of them cite as well as quote from the well-used diaries & memoirs of the period: Becker P. Rule of Fear (1964) Du Buisson, L. The White Man Cometh (1987) Gardiner, AF. Narrative of a Journey through the Zoolu Country. (1836). Gibson JY. The Story of the Zulus (1903/1911) Laband J. Rope of Sand - the Rise & Fall of the Zulu Nation (1995). Morris D.R. The Washing of the Spears - the Rise & Fall of the Zulu Nation (1966). Robert B. The Zulu Kings (1974) Taylor S. Shaka's Children - a History of the Zulu People (1994) There are plenty of others which cover the period but these should provide you with a flavour. Not many mention the American (Venable) who wandered into Dingane's capital in Feb 1838, prepared to give the King a dressing down & a piece of hs mind, but changed his tack when shown the saddles and horses of a few score Boer who'd just been slaughtered & were at that moment being devoured by vultures. One of the Frenchmen I had in mind was Adulphe Delegorgue, who left us his thoughts about that period in 1847. Not sure what IMAX is, nor a "G" rating, but you'll certainly have your work cut out deciding what to leave out! Best of luck Peter
24th February 2005	Peter Ewart P.S. I think I'm right in saying that if, after posting your contribution, you leave the thread via clicking "back to topic list" up at the top instead of using the back button, the repetition of the posting doesn't occur. Don't worry, we've all done it! P.
26th February 2005	Michael Boyle Kimberly, The following may help a little,the first references American missionaries who first translated the Bible into Zulu, the second African-American connections to S.A. http://www.biblesociety.co.za/resources/translations_zulu.asp http://www.howard.edu/library/Reference/bob_edgar_site/maintext.html Not alot of info on the pages but if you contact them they may be able to fill you in. Best Michael
26th February 2005	Kimberly IMAX is the HUGE film shown at special theaters where the screen is I think close to 6 stories high and you feel like you are part of the movie. It is quite an experience. As far as the G rating goes, it needs to be able to be watched by even the kiddies. So, that means no major violence or otherwise offensive scenes. Kimberly
1st March 2005	Julian Whybra I have copies of letters to and from George Cato relating to Isandhlwana and its aftermath - not quite what you were looking for perhaps?